Air Show Crash at CAF Dallas Air Show

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._Houston-1.jpg

There has been a tragic crash at the Commemorative Air Force Dallas Air Show. From videos it appears that a P-63 Kingcobra cut inside the show pattern and slammed into the CAF B-17, "Texas Raiders." Both were WWII era aircraft. The B-17 was making a low pass over the field at approximately 150 feet. The P-63 appears to have cut across from about eight o'clock high (port side, abaft the wing, going from high to low. The entire tail empennage of the B-17 separated, from the radio room (trailing edge of the wing) back. Both aircraft dropped to the ground immediately and the wings and forward fuselage of the B-17 burst into flame. There are no reports of survivors. The B-17 typically flew with a crew of four to five and the P-63 was a single-man fighter aircraft.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...GwfPOO7S-1.jpg

For those who remember, Milsurps moderator Harlan (deceased) was a member of the Commemorative Air Force. He flew with and photographed B-17 Texas Raiders. He was also the impetus for the creation of this sub-forum, by the way.

Let's keep the families of those involved in prayer, shall we?

Bob

Very sad news. A reminder to the fact that when a WW2 era bomber is lost it can, sadly, sometimes, mean a large loss of life.

Tragic event. Hits hard to see this.

Thoughts are with families and friends on this Remembrance Day
RIP

November 12th at an air show in Texas, a B-17 had it's tail sliced off by a P-63 King Cobra which nearly disintegrated afterwards. The B-17 flying only a few hundred feet up at the time immediately flipped and slammed into the ground. Five on the B-17 and the pilot of the P-63 are presumed dead. There are multiple videos of it happening and I would expect more will become available as time passes. These things are taped by hundreds of spectators on the ground.

Official word is minimal as they are waiting on the investigation to be concluded.

Criticism has already begun as it does every time one of these old warbirds is involved in a crash, but this was not equipment failure.

Both planes are total losses.

From the video, it almost looks deliberate but I won't speculate on that. The B-17 looked to be approaching for a photo pass and the fighter approached from the left and behind at a high rate of speed. At the shows I attend, the fighters and bombers are never "performing" at the same time so this was unusual. They are often in the air at the same time but never over the spectator area and not doing stunts when anything else is around.

Threads merged to make discussion easier.

Bob

Very sad indeed and I would guess the pilot of the fighter either intended to make a close pass as though simulating an attack, or simply couldn't see the B17 past the nose of his own a/c.

Deliberate hadn't occurred to me, but similar things have happened. If there was some personal issues involved, perhaps that would explain what might have been intended only as a very close pass that was misjudged?

On the articles I have read about it, alot of people seem to be commenting on the low visibility of the KingCobra aircrafts cockpit so it is entirely possible he did not see the B-17. Completely tragic all the way around

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jond41403

On the articles I have read about it, alot of people seem to be commenting on the low visibility of the KingCobra aircrafts cockpit so it is entirely possible he did not see the B-17.

---

Which is complete red herring, given the P-63 was clearly banking inside the turn, so the B-17 was hidden below the cockpit floor in effect, so the blindspot the B-17 was in was nothing to do with the view out of the cockpit!

I've seen a comment from someone involved that the display airboss cleared the fighters into the lower bomber circuit, as had been the pre-show brief if it was clear to do so, which if true, means the airboss either didn't see/expect the B-17 to be there, or more likely cleared the P-51 through and hadn't seen the smaller front profile of the P-63 following it into the lower circuit as well.....

Such a tragedy but take something useful from it - these airman were true professionals and the best of the best, and they unfortunately still made a mistake. It's a good reminder to always remember and practice the firearms safety rules, no matter how much knowledge or experience we have with them. Thoughts and prayers to the pilots and crew.

What are the chances of the Commemorative Airforce ever being able to find another B17 suitable to be made airworthy again? I know that there are various examples in museums but what about examples available for restoration to flight?

They have several B-17's and another P-63. Still a massive loss to history.

B-17 "Liberty Belle" developed a fuel tank fire in the port wing, was put down in a cornfield, and burned up.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...takeoff1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...leburns1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...leburns2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...leburns3-1.jpg

Restoration to airworthiness is currently underway. That's amazing. Out of a total of forty-five survivors, there are currently nine airworthy examples, six known to be undergoing restoration to airworthiness, and five that are registered with the FAA that are currently static displays.

Bob

Tragic loss of life. I'll state if you want your kids of grandkids to see a B-17 or B-29 flying, you'd better do it in the next year or so. The age of WWII flight is coming to a close.

It seems the fighters were doing their circus whilst the B-17 and B-25 were at a lower level flying past the field.
From what I took from the video whilst listening to the commentator of it who is a member of the Dallas fraternity with a few thousand hours in WWII aircraft you can see what happens pretty clearly from the video from the airfield and the one from the shopping mall car park.
The B-17 was lower than the Cobra and in a slight bank to port if you can see this in the air field shot, the Cobra's layout being mid engined with a long nose gear means it actually has a long nose and the thickest part of the wing is right where the pilot is, restricting ones vision, having a car door type cockpit also adds to the restrictive views.
The author demonstrated this by video's he took flying a P-51 and the King Cobra on just how cluttered the forward and side views were in the latter compared to the rather open view from the P-51.

Back to the airfield shot; off to the right of the B-17 you can just make out the Cobra coming in at a fairly steep turn to port as the P-51's had already gone out of shot with their circus this placed from what I can gather the B-17 squarely underneath the Cobra's starboard wing or fuselage as he banked to port so the B-17 was obscured out of view of its pilot.
There was no avoiding action by either plane indicating neither saw each other.
So many questions will be asked but the main one is who worked out the degree of separation why not have the bombers at 1500Ft hard deck no higher and the fighters at 2500Ft no lower.
Very sad loss of life may their souls find peace and their families, to those that witnessed this tragedy I hope you do not lose the passion of these great displays, sadly a great historical artifact of the USA was lost hopefully another will take its place.
R.I.P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Restoration to airworthiness is currently underway. That's amazing. Out of a total of forty-five survivors, there are currently nine airworthy examples, six known to be undergoing restoration to airworthiness, and five that are registered with the FAA that are currently static displays.
Bob

---

That airport is a 20 minute drive for me, amazing to safely land and get everyone aboard evacuated before the plane was consumed by the flames.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Which is complete red herring, given the P-63 was clearly banking inside the turn, so the B-17 was hidden below the cockpit floor in effect, so the blindspot the B-17 was in was nothing to do with the view out of the cockpit!

I've seen a comment from someone involved that the display airboss cleared the fighters into the lower bomber circuit, as had been the pre-show brief if it was clear to do so, which if true, means the airboss either didn't see/expect the B-17 to be there, or more likely cleared the P-51 through and hadn't seen the smaller front profile of the P-63 following it into the lower circuit as well.....

---

IMO this is the person most responsible for the tragedy, not thought out of what can go wrong will go wrong. All three pilots were highly qualified, I'm surprised someone didn't speak up during the pre-flight or while being cleared to enter the altitude at which the planes converged. That airboss/controller should never be allowed to hold that duty again, if it's within your control you are responsible. ALL future air shows should have strict regulations related to multiple aircraft and aircraft types flying in the same relative airspace. These are civilian professionals participating in a weekend hobby. Husband of my wife's HS BFF had VIP tickets to Friday's show but it was rained out, he was rescheduled for Sunday but the event was cancelled after this tragedy. My initial knee jerk reaction was to blame the Aircobra pilot, but I've shifted that to place the responsibility on the event air traffic controller.

I tend to agree that it was the air boss's fault. I've been attending one of these for 20 plus years and have never seen the fighters at the same time as the bombers unless they were doing something very specific like and escort for photographs, they are always at the same relative speed also. I attend the Reading WWII weekend in Pennsylvania, and they have several CAF aircraft at every show. B-29's, B-24's, B-17's and the smaller two engine bombers. The four engine bombers generally simply circle around at relatively low altitudes and do photo passes just as this one apparently was doing. The other classes of planes typically do the same thing with a few exceptions with one or two of the fighter planes which perform stunts of various sorts, generally rolls, climbs, etc. But while this is happening, all the other planes are well clear of the airfield. It is kind of boring watching the slow passes but then these aircraft are 75 plus years old and few and far between so it's understandable not to put them at risk.

With these sort of things when things start to go wrong they can go wrong very quickly and before people have time to react. Mid-air collisions were one of the unfortunate things that happened during WW2. With this accident once the authorities have got to the bottom of exactly what happened, hopefully, they can make it less likely to happen in the future.

In general terms and not saying that it happened in this case, for want of a better way of putting it, there can on occasions, I believe, be an element of "showing off" at airshows. Unfortunately luck can sometimes run out.

It was all supposed to have changed after the Italian debacle performing the pierced heart manoeuvre that air shows would be made safer.
Thankfully no one on the ground or outside the perimeter was killed or injured but who ever thought up that flight plan should find their way to jail as obviously the degree of separation between the groups and flight paths was just a sheer and total cluster eff up.

When you view the footage planes are basically going everywhere in the same direction but the height separation between the fighters and bombers is alarmingly narrow, almost as bad as an actual war sortie !!!!

Juan Browne (blancolirio) is a airline pilot that gives professional breakdowns of air crashes on his YouTube channel, here he gives a preliminary breakdown of known facts such as flight paths and other data, though he doesn't place blame it did question why the fighters and bombers were on the same flight pattern at the same height. Browne was actually checked out by one of the B-17 pilots for qualification rating the US to Hawaii route with his aircraft.

Mid Air Collision Report - YouTube

NTSB updates this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNnjqaJlHfY

Interesting analysis. It must be very difficult to keep track of all the other aircraft and also fly your own aircraft all at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge1998

Juan Browne (blancolirio) is a airline pilot that gives professional breakdowns of air crashes on his YouTube channel, here he gives a preliminary breakdown of known facts such as flight paths and other data, though he doesn't place blame it did question why the fighters and bombers were on the same flight pattern at the same height. Browne was actually checked out by one of the B-17 pilots for qualification rating the US to Hawaii route with his aircraft.

---

The equivalent question is why that height issue either was not apparent to the pilots concerned, or apparently didn't cause them concern? After all, they were experienced air show pilots were they not?

The King Cobra was in a downward trajectory of what, about 25 degrees or so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surpmil

The equivalent question is why that height issue either was not apparent to the pilots concerned, or apparently didn't cause them concern? After all, they were experienced air show pilots were they not?

The King Cobra was in a downward trajectory of what, about 25 degrees or so?

---

I thought from the beginning, mayhaps a medical issue from the Cobra pilot?

Russ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RASelkirk

I thought from the beginning, mayhaps a medical issue from the Cobra pilot?

Russ

---

So did I, given recent trends.

ASI Senior Vice President, Richard McSpadden, CFII, MEI, SES, MES, former Commander/Flight Leader for the USAF Thunderbirds gives a respectable preliminary analysis of the incident. The health as well as the most recent activity prior to this flight for the Cobra pilot will certainly be a factor as well as the competency of the air boss.

Early Analysis: Wings Over Dallas Midair Collision WWII Airshow November 12, 2022 - YouTube

Dan Gryder (a controversial figure) gives his brand of in your face analysis, go to the 32 minute mark in the following, what he has to say adds to what could well be a contributing cause outside of the actual flying itself.

CAFs Russ Royce: Not Really An Airboss - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge1998

Dan Gryder

---

And after all the speculation I read here, what he says make all the sense in the world.

As I mentioned in my first post I'd heard from someone involved, that fingers were being pointed at the Air Boss, but if what's in that Gryder video turns out to be all true, then CAF are in big trouble, or should be, but its CAF, and they've wriggled out of serious incidents in the past.
Maybe this could finally be one too many?

Eye opener! :eek: Man, that's sad! Air shows are not the place for nepotism. :move eek: And the pilots not voicing any concerns is ... disheartening at best.

Russ

Sounds like it might be time for a change of corporate culture.

Bob

Just a summary of what we've seen, and heard that makes sense with as little speculation as possible...The multiple angles of footage show an inside pattern of fighters (smaller radius flight path), and outside pattern of bombers. Given the speed and rate of turn of the P-51's in the fighter group, it looks like the P-63 was falling behind and sped up quite a lot as it appears to be going much faster than the P-51's. It also looks like as a result theP-63 was late in the turn and compensated by turning much sharper than the P-51's. Given the analysis we've seen of the airframe, cockpit location, etc, the P-63 overshot the fighter pattern and at the same time had little or no chance of seeing the B-17. As others have said, the Air Boss' testimony will be key.

Obviously they did not have the numbers of aircraft so hatched a plan to put on a show, but to have a person come up with a plan who only has his single pilots license nothing else except he was some ones son and was slipped into the position is lunacy.
Thats like me grabbing a chap from the street give them a 40 minute talk on how the crane prime mover and its upper car body & computer work as well as all its operational configurations of boom/outriggers & counterweights then letting them loose to put an airconditioner on top of a 110M high building! Nuts!!!

Reminded me of the Alec Baldwin incident where the armorer was the young (early 20's) daughter of a famed armorer, she was just out of her league and unable to control the on site weapons.

I think that everyone should wait until the official investigation/s have been concluded before they start proportioning blame.

Quite possibly it could be found that it was caused by no one person or thing.

There is never really a single factor that causes an incident but the swiss cheese method where at some point a set of holes lines up allowing the bullet to pass through without hitting the cheese.
The most common one we used for incidents at the mine or construction sites was the ICAM principle using PEEPO and asking the 5 Why's as part of the investigation.
P= People E= Environment E= Equipment P= Procedures O= Organisation

The loss of life is very sad but, unfortunately, time can't be turned back. The official investigation/s should be privy to all the information and evidence that is available and hopefully be able to provide some answers in the fulness of time.

I missed this thread being offline for most of last year with my Wife's health issues.
Harlan and I were very close friends, I remember when his username was cafdfw for a long time before he changed over to just Harlan.
I'll try to start a new thread in the next few days and share some of the pictures he shared with me.... some he might have already shared here before also.
I can't help but read the story you posted about and think about all the phone calls and pictures he shared with me as he rode along with these flight crews.
He was hands on with many restorations. I sure miss him and his son Tony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

I remember when his username was cafdfw for a long time before he changed over to just Harlan.

---

I remember that too...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

I'll try to start a new thread in the next few days and share some of the pictures he shared with me

---

They would have been lost anyway.