British Proof-marks on a March '42 Winchester

Hey all,

Recently my father and I picked up an M1 Garand made by Winchester sometime in March 1942. It looks to be all correct with the exception of the gas cylinder (which is missing the stacking swivel) but the gas cylinder looks to be as aged as the rest of the rifle, possibly indicating it has been with it for some time.

On the right side of the barrel underneath the rear handguard, there are British-proof marks F.B. with crossed swords, indicating that the rifle was inspected at Birmingham as early as 1955. I know that generally, the presence of British proof marks does not automatically mean that it is a Lend Lease (certain time period and serial number) but this rifle was manufactured around the time of the last batch of rifles sent to Britain in early 1942. Furthermore, the proof markings are underneath the rear handguard, not towards the muzzle by the gas cylinder.

My question is, did the United States supply Britain with rifles from both Springfield Armory and Winchester, or did the supply come entirely from Springfield?

Nice, nice, nice rifle. More comprehensive pics when/if you can?

That rifle looks all correct and like a Lend lease. They also tried to put small crowns all over so look for those. The stock should also be a hinged butt plate and not a No Trap nor modified. I think you have a neat rare rifle there. Rick B

Of course, I will try to provide more photographs tomorrow, is there anything in particular?

Rick, the stock actually does have a no trap butt plate, I’llI thought that was correct for Winchesters produced until April 1942 production. I’m using Scott Duff’s guide and the data sheets for rifles 159,200 and 159,795 state they had no trap W.B. stocks.

All that aside, Winchester did provide lend-lease rifles? If that’s true, it makes sense, it’s just never something I’ve never really associated Winchester with; to me, Winchester just seemed to operate in its own little sphere. Are there other known LL WRA M1s?

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Originally Posted by Ms15710

is there anything in particular?

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I know it sounds like a lot but all the small marks and details. That's what identifies these and gives us a reference for future.

As far as the Birmingham proofs (BNP) on the rifle, there will be one on the top of the receiver ring in front of the bolt and one on the right front operating lug of the bolt.

These proofs would be a crown over BNP if clearly struck and would face to the right.
Maybe only a ding or a smudge will show.

Pics of these would be great. Thanks.

It also appears this one still has the front sight seal? Does it also have the completely round firing pin?

My fault,
I had a senile moment lol. 115,000 was around the range WB came into play. That is where my mind mangle happened. You are correct on it being a No Trap. The WB Trap door came into play around 120,500 through 121,500 range Rick B

WRA Lend Lease guns are very scarce despite the fact that the Act included Winchesters. Not many were sent because they were all so new.

So I have attached more photographs, and it does look like this rifle is a Lend Lease Winchester.

On the receiver ring there is the BNP proof mark, but what I also noticed was the scant trace of orange paint towards the rear of the front handguard; it took being in the sun for it to become visible. On closer inspection, the receiver looks like it was definitely annealed.

As for the gas cylinder, it does still have the front sight seal on it, but it looks to be a narrow-base Springfield gas cylinder. I know that when these rifles were imported back to the U.S. that they were disassembled, so perhaps the wrong gas cylinder was put on this rifle. Or maybe it was replaced sometimes during service, as the wear is very consistent with the rest of the rifle, and the gas cylinder lock is definitely Winchester.

The rear handguard also has a nice tiger pattern finish to it, but the majority of the stock and the handguards look very dry and there appears to be mold in the channel as well as around the barrel. Should I treat this or leave it alone?

I'd say the whole rifle needs a clean and oil, wood needs some BLO. Pic #2 here shows the bolt lug has the other proof mark, one on the barrel ring and one on the bolt lug. Both are typically smashed. Yes, the gas cylinder could have been switched during the import degreasing. Stranger things... Nice rifle. Nice history capsule. I take it the bore is about new? Have a look at the firing pin, you'll have to strip the bolt to do that. Round profile firing pins are probably best not fired. Mine didn't break but if it does it could cost the rifle.

The barrel measures 1.5 at the throat and 1.0 at the muzzle, it is just about new. There is also very little wear along the receiver indicating it hasn’t seen much cycling.

Yes, sorry about not providing a photograph of the firing pin. I’m admittedly cautious about disassembling the rifle. When we first got it, I stripped it down to see if the bullet guide and follower arm were period correct (both are) but taking the bolt and stripping it gives me a bit of anxiety.

My father and I purchased the rifle looking for a nice, near original/correct six-digit Winchester. Happy to have learned about it and I want to thank everyone who’s chimed in to help!

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Originally Posted by Ms15710

Yes, sorry about not providing a photograph of the firing pin.

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Not a problem, just info for you. No one else has mentioned it yet.

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Originally Posted by Ms15710

taking the bolt and stripping it gives me a bit of anxiety.

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Wish I were closer, using an M10 cleaning rod handle and refer to the book...it's a wiz. Nothing to it.

At least you know about the round firing pins, they apparently fractured during use and would stick out causing a detonation of live round in an unlocked breech.

You can use the M10 tool without disassembly of the rifle, I put some oil on the tool before chambering it, also oil the extractor a bit as it
will lift out without any problem

Try this way. Rick B


M1 Garand Lesson Bolt assembly - YouTube

I would like to see the top front face of the gas cylinder lock and a better pictures of the gas cylinder. Maybe I have missed it but the gas cylinder from the angles that I see lead me to believe it could be SA. And the other question I have for the guru's, does it appear that the receiver may have been annealed? While the legs do not look like it one of the side shots of the rear elevation side has a shadow like it could have been, just a question I thought I would ask. As the above experts have said above, it's a great find and a beautiful rifle, thank you for sharing.

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Originally Posted by RCS

You can use the M10 tool without disassembly of the rifle,

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Exactly what I meant, the extractor lifts out gently and the whole thing is under control.

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Originally Posted by cpc

does it appear that the receiver may have been annealed?

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Yes, the dark sides of the receiver tail would indicate annealing.

How many Winchester receivers in the 1.2 million serial range do you find without the rear anneal color ?

There are some early ones but very rare to find ! I think the factory anneal started before the serials in
the 1.2 million were produced. Need some research in this area

Gorgeous rifle! Congrats!

That would be good information to know. This rifle looks mostly original to me, except maybe the gas cylinder. I wouldn’t think an original rifle this early would be annealed but this rifle doesn’t appear to be a put together. I would sure like to hear what you, Bob, Paul, etc think about it. Regards

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Originally Posted by RCS

How many Winchester receivers in the 1.2 million serial range do you find without the rear anneal color ?

There are some early ones but very rare to find ! I think the factory anneal started before the serials in
the 1.2 million were produced. Need some research in this area

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I have started to check some of my data sheets on early Winchester M1 rifles and have the following data :

Winchester s/n 161369 green-gray color receiver without anneal color
alot of CM marked parts, stock WRA WB modifield to trap door, possible restoration ?

Winchester s/n 164700 reported as without anneal color sold for $9825.00 on auction in 2013
later sold on auction for lower price in 2020.

Winchester s/n 122864 British proofs on barrel between gas cylinder rings, early rear sight knobs and had
WRA WB no trap stock, list on gunboards for $3400.00 unknown history

Very nice rifle and a bit uncommon to find a Winchester M1 Garand with British markings, essentially with red paint, or at least a ghost trace, on the hand guard lower band area. Congratulations.

The gas cylinder is definitely Springfield and possibly the lock also. The cylinder and lock are definitely incorrect but who knows why they were replaced. Was the original cylinder damaged on the Winchester cylinder ? Maybe the finish was damaged and someone replaced it with a nicer looking one ? The finish looks original on these pieces and it was common for the finish to degrade without use or 'fall off' the early Springfield gas cylinders and gas locks. The single slot screw looks to be correct and with, what appears as, original dulite finish.

Most everything else appears to be Winchester. There are certain finishes on the parts that are correct by what information and pictures we can see. More and better pictures would be very helpful in determining any markings, finish, etc..

The annealed heels weren't done until a little bit later during production at Springfield. I'm unsure if Winchester annealed any heels during production as I don't have that information yet in my research. BUT the heels on earlier rifles could and would be annealed by simply removing the trigger group and then the receiver group from the stock. The rear of the receiver could be annealed without dissassembly of the group and then reassembled back with the stock and trigger group and the rifle returned to stores or service. Not uncommon to find each rifles that are all original or substantially original except the heels were annealed.

I would be hesitant to start changing parts or dissmissing the rifle without further inspection and research. There are some unanswered questions that can be answered easily with more pictures and research.

Paul

In the early days, annealing was done at pretty low levels. They would simply take the rifle out of the stock and dip the heel in a pot of molten lead, usually at an angle. You commonly see the slanted edges of the discoloration on the receiver. Sometimes they dipped a bit too deep and caught the tips of the receiver legs, it's not uncommon. The lead tempered the receiver but did not stick, so they just put the receiver back in the stock and it was done. It was often called "lead pot annealing." None of the parts was changed.

I consider myself a bit of a purist when it comes to collecting so I don't imagine I'll be changing anything on this rifle, especially given how hard it is to find a contemporary, original Winchester gas cylinder suitable for the rifle. I take Scott Duff's "Leave it alone" to heart. I assume the part likely got swapped upon re-entry to the U.S. but of course, anything is possible. We purchased it at an auction; I wish I knew who the original owner was so I could have asked them questions about it.

That being said, I'm happy to provide more photographs of the M1, but I'm not sure what angles/areas I should focus on other than what's already been provided. I'm still learning so I'm sure there are things you guys are noticing that are passing over my head.

Beautiful rifle! I would not touch a thing! Fantastic find.

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Originally Posted by Bob Seijas

In the early days, annealing was done at pretty low levels. They would simply take the rifle out of the stock and dip the heel in a pot of molten lead, usually at an angle. You commonly see the slanted edges of the discoloration on the receiver. Sometimes they dipped a bit too deep and caught the tips of the receiver legs, it's not uncommon. The lead tempered the receiver but did not stick, so they just put the receiver back in the stock and it was done. It was often called "lead pot annealing." None of the parts was changed.

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Thanks Bob, regards, Curt

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

Thanks Paul, regards Curt

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Originally Posted by cgroc09

Very nice rifle and a bit uncommon to find a Winchester M1 Garand with British markings, essentially with red paint, or at least a ghost trace, on the hand guard lower band area. Congratulations.

The gas cylinder is definitely Springfield and possibly the lock also. The cylinder and lock are definitely incorrect but who knows why they were replaced. Was the original cylinder damaged on the Winchester cylinder ? Maybe the finish was damaged and someone replaced it with a nicer looking one ? The finish looks original on these pieces and it was common for the finish to degrade without use or 'fall off' the early Springfield gas cylinders and gas locks. The single slot screw looks to be correct and with, what appears as, original dulite finish.

Most everything else appears to be Winchester. There are certain finishes on the parts that are correct by what information and pictures we can see. More and better pictures would be very helpful in determining any markings, finish, etc..

The annealed heels weren't done until a little bit later during production at Springfield. I'm unsure if Winchester annealed any heels during production as I don't have that information yet in my research. BUT the heels on earlier rifles could and would be annealed by simply removing the trigger group and then the receiver group from the stock. The rear of the receiver could be annealed without dissassembly of the group and then reassembled back with the stock and trigger group and the rifle returned to stores or service. Not uncommon to find each rifles that are all original or substantially original except the heels were annealed.

I would be hesitant to start changing parts or dissmissing the rifle without further inspection and research. There are some unanswered questions that can be answered easily with more pictures and research.

Paul

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