Late war H&H T furniture

I have been studying the many excellent Enfield resource books and this fine forum but have a lingering question on Holland & Holland's WW II sniper conversion of BSA No.4Mk.1Ts -

It sounds like the rifles were re-stocked as part of the process, does that mean new wood or just bedding the existing stocks better for accuracy? The selection process of identifying TRs at BSA no doubt located the rifles that had just the right stock fit, fore end pressure, etc., that promoted accuracy among other features. Would H&H then start over with new wood?

If so, would they always use more stable North American Walnut than home grown Beech, even in 1945?

AFAIK H&H did not restock rifles. They were paid to effect the conversion from standard service rifle to sniper's rifle only. The rifles should not have needed restocking anyway, as they had already passed an accuracy test & been accordingly marked at BSA with the TR stamp. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

I've not seen documentation to confirm it, but from observation of many rifles it seems that Trials rifles were stocked up in walnut, though once war broke out we were quickly forced to substitute walnut with beech & birch for various woodwork parts. However, by 1943 it seems that supplies of North American kiln dried walnut came on hand, so one sees a reversion to walnut. If you see a 1943, 44, or 45 BSA produced 4T stocked up in anything other than walnut you are likely to be looking at a rifle that has been restocked. The walnut, though of North American origin, was turned into forends, butts, & hand guards in the UK & bears usually one of three different makers' initials or factory codes. This is further complicated in that the metal fixtures to the woodwork were often contracted out to additional manufacturers....

Hope this helps....

Roger can you ascertain from the pic what wood my T is stocked in it's by all accounts according to the records from what I have learned here a Sept 1944 build with it's original as issued MkIII No.32 scope.
AFAICT it has not been FTR'ed as there are no stampings or electro pencil markings on it anywhere to signify that event in it's history, the scope end covers are a repro.
TIA

Cinders, I'm sure that's walnut, although stained birch can sometimes look quite similar, especially to lighter shades of walnut.......but that's walnut. I suspect that your cheekpiece is quite possibly ash (ash looks just like oak to me, but I gather we do not use oak on rifles due to the chemical constituents rotting iron over time!).

Thank you for that Roger.

Thank you Roger. It makes sense that the "careful restocking" work done by H&H was simply fine tuning, etc., as referenced by Skennerton in "The Lee-Enfield" and "The British Sniper". In "An Armorer's Perspective", by Laidler and Skennerton it is more clearly defined: "the rifles were stripped and the rifle number stamped into the woodwork". Clearly if they refused rifles with solid foresight blocks they were not going to re-stock them as well!

As a follow up, what about the wood of late war cheek rests? Most look pretty dark, suggesting walnut but I suspect they were made by whatever small blocks of wood were at hand.

The flecks in the grain of Beech seem the best way to identify some dark wood stocks of undefined species.

They may exist, but I've never seen British produced cheekpieces in walnut, only Canadian. I have examples of UK cheekpieces in beech (the most common), birch (usually noticed on early conversions such as Trials & Savage rifles), & ash (usually on later war BSA Shirley rifles). Ash cheekpieces are sometimes stained quite dark, but equally are sometimes found in their pale natural wood colour. However, beech seems the most common generally. It's also difficult to be too dogmatic about it as rifles were often in service a long time & could easily have had replacement cheekpieces fitted over the years.......

From what I have read & learnt from Peter when he was researching the book the woodwork & furniture was tagged with the rifle serial number in order to ensure that it was refitted to the correct rifle once the conversion to T was completed.

P.S. Indeed H&H were not paid to swap over foresight blocks from the solid to the screw type, but in practice the requirements were relaxed when it came to foresight blocks, & many later rifles have the solid type. There is also a sub-group of 1943 rifles that bear Savage produced Mk1 (M) rear sights. This was long presumed to be because these rifles arrived at H&H as acceptable for conversion, but with the wrong rear sights. Rather than reject them a replacement 'Singer' sight was permitted. I had noted a small number of such rifles, all '43 dated, & then a while back another forummer found a documented reference to the supply of sights of Savage manufacture to H&H for this very purpose.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Roger can you ascertain from the pic what wood my T is stocked in it's by all accounts according to the records from what I have learned here a Sept 1944 build with it's original as issued MkIII No.32 scope.
AFAICT it has not been FTR'ed as there are no stampings or electro pencil markings on it anywhere to signify that event in it's history, the scope end covers are a repro.
TIA

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What prefix serial number is it, as I reckon mine was made around Sept/Oct '44 as well. Mine is a L prefix serial number, and has its original matching Mk.3 scope and bracket, and woodwork. Mines not been FTR's either, although its not got its original barrel.

GeeRam mine sports the JC bracket which is I think is Rose & Son!
Scope is an AK & S MkIII Ser No. 16684 I think they started the serials for the AK & S at 1500.

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Originally Posted by Cordite burner

I have been studying the many excellent Enfield resource books

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From my shelves the first book will give valuable insights into the stocking up of the Lee Enfield line.

I have like most here all the books you referenced as well as a few more Statton's book is not bad also E B Reynolds book on them but is a bit pricey.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

GeeRam mine sports the JC bracket which is I think is Rose & Son!
Scope is an AK & S MkIII Ser No. 16684 I think they started the serials for the AK & S at 1500.

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What prefix rifle serial number though?

My scope is a CT&S in the 207** number range, on a Rose bracket, but we know the scopes were selected randomly for fitting to the rifles at H&H. Another guy in my rifle club has a real 4T as well, but is an ex-Indian service one, so has has its original BSA serial number linished off and re numbered by the Indians, but his is a later 1945 dated rifle, but his CT&S scope is in the 195** number range, so over a 1000 numbers earlier than mine, but fitted to a rifle made in the following year.

F38***

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

F387**

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Quite a good few 10's of thousands before my L324** rifle then....interesting.

Interested to know how you deduced yours was made around Sept '44 then as in Peter L's book on the 4T, two of the six rifles used for the Oct '44 production trials of the Mk.III scope were also L32*** only within a 100 numbers either side of my rifle, so hence me deducing mine was likely made around Sept '44.

I would have thought a F prefix would be closer to BSA production in May or June 44...??

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

Quite a good few 10's of thousands before my L324** rifle then....interesting.

Interested to know how you deduced yours was made around Sept '44 then as in Peter L's book on the 4T, two of the six rifles used for the Oct '44 production trials of the Mk.III scope were also L32*** only within a 100 numbers either side of my rifle, so hence me deducing mine was likely made around Sept '44.

I would have thought a F prefix would be closer to BSA production in May or June 44...??

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I'm getting confused here - my BSA 4T is 1943 and the serial is AV35xx

Did they go from an AA 2-letter prefix (Did they go from AA to ZZ) and 4 digits to a single letter prefix and 5 digits between mid 43 to mid 44 ?

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

I'm getting confused here - my BSA 4T is 1943 and the serial is AV35xx

Did they go from an AA 2-letter prefix (Did they go from AA to ZZ) and 4 digits to a single letter prefix and 5 digits between mid 43 to mid 44 ?

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Yes.
When exactly I don't know, but my guess would be very early '44, or possibly when they went from 43 date to 44 date?

BSA Shirley used a single letter prefix followed by a four digit number during 1941 & 42, then in 1943 went to double letter prefixes but with the first of the two letters always being 'A' (AA, AB, AC, AD etc) until they changed over to five digit numbers at the beginning of 1944. The first run of 1944 had no letter prefix, the second 'A', the third 'B' & so on.

The 'latest' prefix combination I can remember seeing for 1943 is AX, but AY &/or AZ may well exist. I've also seen one rifle bearing a A? serial that was dated 1944, but I've only ever seen the one....(I think it was an AX prefixed rifle).

The changeover at the turn of the years 1944 to 1945 seems to be blurred a little. I've seen 4T's bearing P & R prefixes dated both 1944 & 1945.

I've never seen this written down anywhere, so it's purely anecdotal, from my very patchy memory.

I'll have to try and jog my memory as to where I saw the info may have been possibly been in Peters book, maybe Skennertons or Strattons, I think it may have been in Stratton's.

My rifle and scope are listed in Peters book on Page 48 no prefix for the rifle just 38***/16684 for Dowelled Bush and screw trials, but this does not fathom how I got a date still be good to learn exactly when they were paired together as a unit.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

BSA Shirley used a single letter prefix followed by a four digit number during 1941 & 42, then in 1943 went to double letter prefixes but with the first of the two letters always being 'A' (AA, AB, AC, AD etc) until they changed over to five digit numbers at the beginning of 1944. The first run of 1944 had no letter prefix, the second 'A', the third 'B' & so on.

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That makes sense - I couldn't fathom out how they had got thru' the doubling-alphabet (AA-AZ, then BA-BZ, then CA-CZ etc etc) in such a short period of time.

I am currently working on this so here is what I found. BSA seems to have had multiple assembly lines working that were assigned certain s/n blocks.

AV prefix rifles are found with both 1943 and 1944 dates.
AX prefix rifles are found with 1943 dates.
no prefix rifles in the 3XXXX are found with 1943 and 1944 dates.

I have yet to find an AY or AZ prefix.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I'll have to try and jog my memory as to where I saw the info may have been possibly been in Peters book, maybe Skennertons or Strattons, I think it may have been in Stratton's.

My rifle and scope are listed in Peters book on Page 48 no prefix for the rifle just 38***/16684 for Dowelled Bush and screw trials, but this does not fathom how I got a date still be good to learn exactly when they were paired together as a unit.

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Aaah right, you are looking at the date of the H&H conversion, rather than the when the base rifle was made by BSA.

I'd love to know both for mine, but did the H&H records survive listing that info of when which rifle serial got paired with which scope on which date (or at least when the completed rifles were dispatched from H&H)
I get the impression we weren't as anal about such levels of documentation as the Germans were........"There was a war on 'ole boy" etc :D

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Originally Posted by Lance

I am currently working on this so here is what I found. BSA seems to have had multiple assembly lines working that were assigned certain s/n blocks.

AV prefix rifles are found with both 1943 and 1944 dates.
AX prefix rifles are found with 1943 dates.
no prefix rifles in the 3XXXX are found with 1943 and 1944 dates.

I have yet to find an AY or AZ prefix.

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So, you have a AV3470 1944 and an AV3602 1943

Here is an AV3536 1943

Thanks for that Lance. We seem to have drawn broadly the same conclusions! And I am speaking from memory, which is often faulty - it could well have been an AV prefixed rifle that was dated 1944. Interesting that you have not come across any AY or AZ rifles either.....

The multiple production lines each with allocated batches of rifles for conversion to 4T would explain the blurring of the change overs.

Out of interest I have only seen one R prefix 1944 dated rifle, most being 1945's.

Greetings Roger

From my "bank" the year change appears to have happened around R35000. I do not have any R34000 rifle photo's so it might have happened there!

The socket stampings on mine for the records. F38752/AK & S 16684

Thanks for the clarification. I've also owned a 1945 P prefix.

Probably, as we said, more than one production line in operation at any given time. Discrepancies might also arise if rifle bodies were finished & lying about for some reason for a while before markings were completed. (The factory markings & date are in a different font to the serials....).

[QUOTE=Roger Payne;526978]They may exist, but I've never seen British produced cheekpieces in walnut, only Canadian. I have examples of UK cheekpieces in beech (the most common), birch (usually noticed on early conversions such as Trials & Savage rifles), & ash (usually on later war BSA Shirley rifles). Ash cheekpieces are sometimes stained quite dark, but equally are sometimes found in their pale natural wood colour. However, beech seems the most common generally. It's also difficult to be too dogmatic about it as rifles were often in service a long time & could easily have had replacement cheekpieces fitted over the years.......

From what I have read & learnt from Peter when he was researching the book the woodwork & furniture was tagged with the rifle serial number in order to ensure that it was refitted to the correct rifle once the conversion to T was completed.

P.S. Indeed H&H were not paid to swap over foresight blocks from the solid to the screw type, but in practice the requirements were relaxed when it came to foresight blocks, & many later rifles have the solid type. There is also a sub-group of 1943 rifles that bear Savage produced Mk1 (M) rear sights. This was long presumed to be because these rifles arrived at H&H as acceptable for conversion, but with the wrong rear sights. Rather than reject them a replacement 'Singer' sight was permitted. I had noted a small number of such rifles, all '43 dated, & then a while back another forummer found a documented reference to the supply of sights of Savage manufacture to H&H for this very purpose.


I have a 1944 T with a Savage rear sight. Is this likely a leftover part or a piece fitted by an armorer later? It appears to be a very early 1944 rifle. Thank you for your detailed input on the matter.

Savage not only sent complete rifles but tons of spares to England during the war years. I've seen a few Savage Mk.1 rear sights converted for the No.4T on rifles, especially 1944 production which were the largest quantity by year.

Rifles that were otherwise suitable for T conversion but which arrived at H&H with the 'wrong' rear sights would have had a replacement fitted. IIRC Mk VII discovered a document concerning exactly this - the supply of Savage Mk1 rear sights to be used as replacements by H&H. I have noticed a number of 1943 dated BSA 4T's with Savage sights fitted, though I cannot recall seeing any 1944's - but if Brian has that's good enough for me. It follows, & is the case with the rifles I have owned or seen personally, that the 'S' on the cut-off block was missing, as these rifles with replacement rear sights were going to need re-zeroing once converted. The presence of the cut-off block 'S' indicates a rifle has its original rear sight on it still & so does not need re-zeroing (after 4T conversion at H&H). If a rifle has the cut-off block 'S' & also has a Savage rear sight, then I suspect it is quite likely the sight has been fitted as a replacement by an armourer or during a refurb at some point in its life.

The problems arise when we find unconverted TR marked bodies/receivers with the "S" and both Enfield examiner's marks....I have one here. ;)

Yes, I have a V prefix 1945. They are not common, but not unknown........;)

Addendum: I suppose it just suggests that the sight 'problem' was rectified in the first instance.......but then subsequent machining of the receiver & fitting of pads was not proceeded with.
Also odd how they bear the D6E examiner's mark. One would expect it to be applied at the end of the conversion process.....but perhaps by then things were getting a bit lax???

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Yes, I have a V prefix 1945. They are not common, but not unknown........;)

Addendum: I suppose it just suggests that the sight 'problem' was rectified in the first instance.......but then subsequent machining of the receiver & fitting of pads was not proceeded with.
Also odd how they bear the D6E examiner's mark. One would expect it to be applied at the end of the conversion process.....but perhaps by then things were getting a bit lax???

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Mine was dated 1947 or 1948.