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Found this No. 5 MK1 at a local gun store on consignment and couldn't resist. She is pretty clean, with no import marks, and from my limited knowledge, everything seems to be matching, except the magazine, which has no serial number on it. It also came with a Bayonet, although it is an RFI but is very clean as well.
Can't wait to see how she handles at the range...
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Nice find congratulations. I have a 3/45 Fazakerly that I bought in 1980. Expect a strong kick and a good bit of muzzle rise. I used primarily 150gr ammo to reduce the kick some. I hunted with it on and off for nearly 30 years. It took several deer so I can say they are accurate and effective.
I've got a bunch of Surplus ammo (corrosive) that I will be using at first. Then maybe some handloads that I built a while back,Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
It has the typical pre-68 import mark ENGLAND stamped into the side of the butt socket, that appears to have been lightly overstamped for some reason, but is still quite clear as to what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------
I'd never now put any surplus corrosive ammo though any of my Enfields, and definitely not my No.5...!Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
Interesting! I didn't know that the England stamp was an important mark. The import marking I was referring to is the firearms import marks required after January 30, 2002Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
Why wouldn't, or shouldn't, I guess is the better question I fire surplus corrosive ammunition in an Enfiled if its clean properly after the fact?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
Nice lookin' carbine. The suncorite shows some abuse but not the rest.
I would only use milsurp cordite rounds as a 'last ditch' emergency if nothing else was available.Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
Firstly the erosion caused by cordite is very severe and the military only gave a barrel firing cordite a 'life' of 5-6000 rounds before it became unusable, where as when a barrel was used with NC (Nitro Cellulose) it had a life of 10,000+ rounds.
Secondly the wear pattern (erosion) with cordite is very different and firing NC rounds after using cordite have very poor accuracy.
The military had stocks of barrels and could just change one over in a mater of minutes - today in civilian life we do not have that luxury and every barrel needs to be nurtred and cared for as we do not know where its replacement will be coming from.
But, it is your rifle to do with whatever you want !
Use of Cordite in Rifles
Source of information : 'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1945)
APPENDIX 15
USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION
1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.
2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.
3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.
4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.
5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.
6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-
(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.
(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.
(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.
Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.
(c) Light M.G.s.
Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.
(d) Rifles.
N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.
7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.
8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from British weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.
Coincidentally for the first 3 or 4 years I had mine I was putting surplus through it unless I was hunting. I was getting 48 round packets that were wrapped in baby blue paper @ 3 for $10. Made shooting a lot rather cheap for a kid in his late teens. When that source ran out it was Remington or Winchester ammo for around $3.50 per 20 so my round count dropped significantly per shooting trip.
Well, I sure am glad I said something about using surplus ammunition, you and GeeRam just saved me some disappointment. So when did the British switch over to N.C. ammunition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I guess I will be breaking down that Surplus ammo I have and purging the Cordite.
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3.50 for 20, those were the days! 303 now is $1.10 PER ROUND and up now...Quote:
Originally Posted by oldfoneguy
I have no doubt serious research and testing went into that pamphlet. However. Much of what is stated there seems very general information about the differences between cordite and NC. Vague references to accuracy when it seems the acceptable rifle accuracy then was about 3-4 inches at 100yards. And based on many more shots being fired through that barrel that would be expected in normal use, leading me to view the basis of the research was automatic fire. Note overhead fire mentioned.
I have fired many thousands of cordite rounds through a No1Mk3* and later hundreds of NC with no difference in accuracy seen between the two. Now some hundreds of mix between the two with a No4Mk2, again with no difference accuracy noted between the two. Of course, cleaned the barrel every time with boiling water the same day after shooting cordite.
It didn't exactly switch over. First use of NC for the 303 was during WW1, and it continued making both NC and Cordite ammo concurrently until at least end of WW2, if not up until early 1950's.Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
The MkVII or MkVIII ammo with NC is suffix with a Z on headstamp.
Even the surplus NC z stamp ammo made during this time can still have corrosive primers, so should still be flushed out with boiling water immediately after shooting. I think they stopped using corrosive primers in the mid 50's, around the time the UK went over to the SLR and the 7.62x51 NATO round.
So, most British and Commonwealth 303 ammo made after about 1955 will be NC and non-corrosive primed.
Thanks Jim, I was surprised when I saw it. I walked in on one of the guys I know at the gun store when he was setting prices a bunch of consignment rifles, I saw the No. 5 in the bunch and asked to look at it. I was surprised by how clean it was and without taking it apart looked to be original. Well except for the No. 5 Bayonet which looked to be a reproduction but I haven't looked into it, just has the look and feel of a repo. I decided not to pass up on the chance of owning a nice No. 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Yes it does. The markings alone would have me seeking another and flog that one. Just me though...Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
MKVIIZ and MKVIIIZ
GeeRam.. Thank you all good information :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------
Thanks for this, I'll have to dig through my surplus to see what I have. I know I have a lot of it and believe I sorted it by headstamp at one point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield