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Saw this buttplate on the Internet recently and didn't immediately recognize it - did find one like it over on the CCC website, though. It's the first one shown at the top of the Buttplate ID page.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/buttplates.html
Would like to have more information on this one please. - Bob
Attachment 131001
Bob,
2nd style NPM on the CCCF link. I'm 99.9% positive after looking at your picture for a 1/2 hour now having a stiff neck.
Next time take the picture with the plate upright :bash:
I studied the dimples around the hole and counted up from the bottom rows, it's a match.
Pics: Outside / Hole detail / Inside
I think Bob may be referring to the square pattern around the hole. The link shows a picture of one but doesn't really describe who made it or anything as far as I can tell.:dunno:
jond, if you look at the 1st pictures in the link, the "square" pattern is just an illusion from worn dots, the picture of the inside of the same butt plate does not show the squared pattern.
Thanks Jon, but I think Charlie is saying it's the same as the late NPM shown lower down that page. I came inside from what I was doing earlier, read his reply and just spent the last couple hours trying to get pics of (3) NPM buttplates I have. Looks like I had another one that was on a Carbine I sold several years ago. They all appear to be the early type - don't think I ever paid any attention to the later one, but it still doesn't look as "square" as the picture I found, or even the one Jim M shows at the top of his ID page. Here's the picture of the one I saw recently on GB rotated so it should be easier on everyone's neck, followed by (2) that I have on stocks and a reparked one from my parts box. Maybe it's just the angle of the pictures that make those others look so square in the center?? :dunno: - Bob
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Bob, I think your best view is your 1st post. It's like the 4 inner dimples in the corners aren't visible in that picture (but they are there) by appearing not being there it looks like a square pattern between the dimples. Compare that plate starting with the very bottom row with the one I pulled from the CCCF. It matches up exactly right down to the slight partial dimples on the ends. Looking at the inside will give you the best view to compare to.
Any bets on Dover???
Oh okay I see now. Thanks Wayne! Wow, that square really is a weird wear pattern! Really does look to me like it was made that way. You guys don't miss anything haha!
I don't get FS1 - only Fox, so won't be following it real close. I think it's going to be a car with a single digit number - maybe #4, 5, 8, or 9. :cheers: - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Plate from a NPM 4,263 mil recently sold on GB. Center pattern looks very much like the center pattern example above from the CCCF.
Good time to Thank the CCCF and Jim Mock (The Sleep Less One) for all the work he does on the pages we rely on.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...77307157-1.jpg
Those plates look too much like the "late" Inland and "late Winchester that I'm still confused about - even looks like the CCCF page may be confused on those, too! Somewhere on this forum a bunch of us went "round & round" on those a few years back. I think there's enough variation from one plate to the next (made on the same machine) that one could appear to be an Inland and the next a Winchester. I have Inland stocks with what I'm sure are the original buttplates that would now be classified as "late Winchester" - Anyone else notice that? :help: - Bob
What's the consensus on the ID of this one? - Bob
Attachment 131108
GI Bob,
I'm leaning towards the WRA plate on the CCC chart, it seems to match up best row by row.
2nd guess would be the Inland/SG plate that btw I just realized is the same picture... If you look closely at this example at a scratch or dent you'll see it on the other example.
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine Buttplates
I always like to credit Jim Mock for his work on putting all this info together.
After I saw your comment, I took awhile and searched old threads for discussions on these buttplates. I've got another buttplate on a Carbine I haven't had out in awhile, so plan to get it out for a picture later today. In the meantime, I want to see if Bubba-7 or Hercules Powder may want to add a comment.
Here's the general Google Search I just used, followed by a couple links to specific threads I found. - Bob
https://www.google.com/search?q=Mils...t=gws-wiz#ip=1
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=52127&page=1
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42657
EDIT: Here's the picture of the 2nd buttplate on the left, followed by the one from post #11 above for comparison.
Attachment 131109Attachment 131110
The butt plate in post #11 is late Inland. You can tell by the gaps at 11 and 2 o'clock.
Jim Mock's butt plate list is the first time I have seen the three Winchester early, mid and late butt plates shown correctly. Early, dot splatter all around screw, mid, dot splatter only on bottom, and late, no splatter and like a late Inland.
And part of the confusion with his list of butt plates is because, it does not have the Inland early square pattern, which before everyone removed their original early square pattern butt plate from their original early Inland and replaced it with the diagonal pattern. CC NLs stated, the early Inland square pattern was more common.
Then Riesch only listed the diagonal pattern for early Inland. So everyone gets guess what happened then. Of course, you can remove the butt plate and see the indentations in the stock wood, if early Inland square or diagonal pattern was original to the stock.
Thirty years ago, been there, done that, myself. Newbies following Riesch have destroyed many, many original carbines.
So GI Bob,
Just what are you up to?
Busy looking at dots on buttplates right now. :surrender: - Bob
:runaway::runaway:
The real answer, and I'm not getting much accomplished on it right now, is to determine if the buttplates on my 476K and 408K Inlands are original "square pattern" Inland plates or Winchester. Either I don't understand the CCC site's explanation, or will need to explain to a future owner why they aren't original. I took some pictures today of the stocks they belong to, but can't see meaningful imprints on either one of them. The 476K stock is on the left and the 408K is on the right in all (4) pictures. Only thing I can see for sure is the wood grain and milling marks. I can take higher resolution pictures if you think that would help any, but don't believe there's really anything there to see. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by painter777
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Can we expand this discussion to the Saginaw/Inland buttplates ?
Is there any pattern of usage observed with these and/or the missing dimple buttplates on SG stocks?
I'm assuming the Saginaw/Inland butt plates were made by Seymour Products.
In Ruth's WB! and III Seymour Products, Seymour Conn. is listed as a Butt Plate Supplier for both Saginaw and Inland. B200997
In WB III Proos Mfg. Company is listed as another subcontractor of Butt Plates to Saginaw. However it seems unlikely to the missing dimple buttplate, if made by Proos, would look so different from the buttplates they made for IP and then Grand Rapids Saginaws.
In 2005, an unknown person claimed to have microfilm copy of 1943 Saginaw subcontractors and spare-part subcontractors.
Micro-film Notes On Saginaw SG Butt Plate Manufactures... | Gun Hub Forums
He claims a Shelby Spring provided 26,000 spare buttplates. That might explain the plethora of NIW missing dot buttplates. I'm a little suspicious this is a little too convenient.
I don't remember where I found these images, but to me it proves that at least some of the "missing-dot" buttplates were made by SA. Hope this helps. - Bob
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Bob,
Very similar image being used for an ebay sale right now. I don't know enough about manufacture versus repacking to speculate as to which we are looking at. Enlarging the ebay photo the ink of the black type looks similar to dot-matrix printer. Of course it would not be dot-matrix printing in the 1943 to 1952 time frame. I'm just describing the appearence for those who may know a bit more about packaging.
Matt
Bob,Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I recall Mr Ricca pointing out that SA had made plates with the missing dot.
From over on The TCCCF Butt plates section:Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Post WWII
When WWII ended Springfield Armory assumed control of the U.S. Carbine program and parts inventory. Replacement stock production continued well after WWII. Buttplates used were obtained from surplus/replacements made during WWII that had yet to be used. Springfield Armory is known to have manufactured buttplates post WWII using equipment left over from at least one subcontractor. Springfield Armory also packaged surplus used and new buttplates for long term storage. A buttplate covered in grease and packaged for long term storage may or may not be "new and unused".
1- Is it possible 'The left over equipment from one sub-contractor' Had the missing Dot pattern?
2- Many missing Dot plates in NOS condition were left over and repacked?
3- Some of both?
4- Just swinging at curve balls :dunno::dunno:
But I do recall Ricca saying he un-wrapped SA marked packs with all the plates missing the Dot. Positive on that.