Odd Turkish Garand bayonet

Picked up this Turkish bayonet today because it was cheap and a type I didn't have. Trying to figure out what the parent bayonet is. It isn't a 1935 which is what most of these were made out of. Has 1907 on it and the blade and the pommel do resemble a British 1907 but the handle and rivets are wrong, not saying the Turks couldn't have replaced those with their own. It doesn't seem to match any Turkish bayonet.

Could that be a James A. Chapman mark on it, I've never seen one.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../APkiKMs-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../xzT0OH8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ftsBlIj-1.jpg

Looks like an 1907 to me. They got scads at Gallipoli and then modified them to fit whatever they had.

Converted from a British JAC, James A Chapman, 1907 bayonet

Would many full length 1907 bayonets have been used as fighting knives? I can't really see it myself but I did see one advertised as such recently. Would have been ok if you could find a soldier with an ultra strong wrist I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Would many full length 1907 bayonets have been used as fighting knives?

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I've never seen one portrayed as such. They've always been cut down no matter what they started as, sword or bayonet.

Going back to the intention of a bayonet. When you muzzleloader is empty you advanced rapidly through the smoke and the length of the bayonet and musket determined how close the other guy could get to you. This tradition was welded, riveted, bolted, locktited and concreted in European military thinking until after WW1 and then the stock of bayonets determined the speed of a new generation of bayonets. Which happened during and after WW2. Useful for opening tins, chopping wood, prybar, etc.

However, you knew their intention and what was going to hit the fan when you saw them charging with fixed bayonets

So never intended to be used in hand to hand fighting, that's why you read about spades and such in fighting in confined spaces. You have to get too close in a melee and use it per individual.

See the size and shape of bayonets after WW2. Much development and much closer to a multi use tool than putting it on the front of your rifle to stick into somebody else. And the relative fragility and compactness of military rifles makes really active use of a bayonet in that way moot. Makes you get too close to him or her also sticking a blade into you.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I've never seen one portrayed as such.

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1907 Pattern Bayonet / fighting knife - Saracen Exports

I think that's just something some bubba did and they don't know what else to call it. I see people doing that sort of thing all the time on eBay. If it's been altered, its a "rare trench made fighting knife" when in reality some farmer did it to cut corn stalks.

I don't believe that either, perhaps this one was used for chopping garden weeds... Lots exist and have a common theme, crossguard is retained and blade is halved and re-pointed. This ain't one...

It could be revived though as a bayonet if one made the crosspiece again, not so hard to do.

Oddly enough, after doing a show one time where I had a US WWI bolo knife, one of the guests told me he had one that he had been using to cut corn stalks. He had no idea what it was, brought it the next time I saw him and sold it to me. Nothing altered on it fortunately.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

if one made the crosspiece again

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What about the heat treatment/tempering of the blade when the crosspiece and pommel is brazed back onto the tang of the blade or is the tang normally left soft anyway? In "theory" a steel's heat treatment may be lost somewhere around brazing temperature, i.e. a cherry red.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

What about the heat treatment/tempering of the blade

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I can't say about that, I'd probably just cross pin and make them off blind. Didn't you do a #5 bayonet cross piece?

Looking at the price on it, there's no room anyway. It's not good enough to buy to fix at that price.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Didn't you do a #5 bayonet cross piece?

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I did repair/refurbish a No5 bayonet a while ago and the crosspiece and pommel are both pinned in placed and then the pins peened over.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Looking at the price on it, there's no room anyway.

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I think that one of the reasons some dealers may describe broken or incomplete bayonets as "fighting knives" is an excuse to ask more for them.

It didn't seem long ago that you could get a good 1907 bayonet and scabbard for £75.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

an excuse to ask more for them.

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Absolutely.

Fighting knife sounds a lot better than bubba special.

Do you still have this bayonet by chance?

I do still have it. I rarely dispose of anything I pick up. I was wondering which one you were asking about in messaging. I forgot about this one. I don't see these on eBay often, but it is still your best bet at finding one.