S&W wartime revolver?

Just found this four inch M&P covered in post war Birmingham proofs, but free of any US import marks. Chambered in .38 S&W and the cylinder has not been reamed to accept .38 Special like so many were in the Fifties. Not stamped " Not British Made " which I believe they quit doing about 1954.

Serial number is 685087 which I am pretty sure predates Lend-Lease. I have a Lend-Lease BSR that bears a serial number in 880000 range. There are no apparent military acceptance marks, but it has a lanyard ring. Trademark on the right side and the "38 S&W CTG" is flanked by Maltese cross dingbats.

All the numbers match, including the grips

British Purchasing Commission gun? Pre-war commercial sale? Officer's private purchase? As it is chambered for the British service cartridge, what are the odds it saw wartime service?

No clue how it came to orphaned on the bottom shelf of an LGS in Kentucky.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1683243471

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...0&d=1683243425

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...9&d=1683243340

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...8&d=1683243275

Interesting that it's a four inch barrel. All the commonwealth guns I've seen are five inch. That would be a nice piece...good catch.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Interesting that it's a four inch barrel. All the commonwealth guns I've seen are five inch. That would be a nice piece...good catch.

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That's what has me curious as well. I've got a lend lease British Service Revolver, stamped US Property and all the rest sporting the "normal" five inch barrel. It shipped in late 1941 and looks like it was overhauled in Australia in 1954. Its serial number is significantly higher, 881544.

I have read the BPC was buying up anything they could lay their hands on, but this gun has no Broad Arrow or any of the other stamps I normally associate with WD ownership. So how many times has it crossed the ocean?

I wonder if it was grabbed up as a pilot's revolver? Aircrew? It doesn't have the "US Property" marking on the top strap?

38S&W started is an American cartridge and was relatively short in British service in a specific load.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I wonder if it was grabbed up as a pilot's revolver? Aircrew? It doesn't have the "US Property" marking on the top strap?

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No it doesn't have the 'US Property" mark on the top strap or GHD inspection stamp you would expect to see on a Lend Lease gun. The "Made in USA" stamped on the right side of the frame is post-1922. It has the large S&W logo on the right places between 1936 and the beginning of the war. .38 S&W was a standard chambering but surpassed in popularity in the .38 Special in the US by then. Leads me to suspect it was a private purchase.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

a private purchase.

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Maybe, after all Goering had one. Vids show clearly when he surrenders a four inch bbl M&P. They were out there for sure.

Britain purchased, NB not Lend Lease, 4879 cal 38 S&W 4" revolver contract of 6/17/40.
Union of South Africa purchased 13847 as above in 1940.
British contract was made in 4, 5 and 6"barrel.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Maybe, after all Goering had one. Vids show clearly when he surrenders a four inch bbl M&P. They were out there for sure.

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It has no military acceptance marks I can see, which I presume is evidence it was not purchased by the BCP at the beginning of the war. Had it entered commercial channels before the war or was sold through The Army & Navy Co-operative Society should it not bear pre-war British proofs? The Birmingham proofs look to be post 1954 and the lack of US import marks suggest its arrival in the US pre-1968.

It does not look like it spent the last eighty years in a sock drawer.

I have its twin, serial number 688554. It has a British style lanyard ring instead of the S&W/Colt type on yours. I thought the small proof in front of the trigger guard on the left side of yours and behind the trigger guard on mine are British military but could be wrong. My guess is they were all prewar purchase prior to Lend lease and used in WW2. There were 110,379 purchased by the British starting around sn. 680000 according to the 39th edition, Blue Book of Gun Values

I also have two of the 5" LL revolvers, one with a Canadian ownership mark and the other an Australian owned revolver that's Parkerized with post WW2 Aussie FTR markings.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I have its twin, serial number 688554. It has a British style lanyard ring instead of the S&W/Colt type on yours. I thought the small proof in front of the trigger guard on the left side of yours and behind the trigger guard on mine are British military but could be wrong. My guess is they were all prewar purchase prior to Lend lease and used in WW2. There were 110,379 purchased by the British starting around sn. 680000 according to the 39th edition, Blue Book of Gun Values

I also have two of the 5" LL revolvers, one with a Canadian ownership mark and the other an Australian owned revolver that's Parkerized with post WW2 Aussie FTR markings.

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I also have one of the five inch Lend-Lease revolvers with post war Australian FTR marks. I've sent off to the S&W Historical Society for a letter on this most recent revolver. Here's picture of the Lend-Lease BSR. It is a pretty good shooter with my 38-200 reloads.

The Australian .38-200 revolver I have is also FTR 1954 if memory serves. Parkerized and in excellent condition. Imported to the USA post 1986. The Canadian revolver is original with lots of finish wear but is still tight and sound.

Nice shooting. Are you using 174 grain cast bullets? These revolvers shoot low with the usual 145 grain American loads.

A normal 9x19 will fire in the 38S&W. Not to be recommended but they work.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The Australian .38-200 revolver I have is also FTR 1954 if memory serves. Parkerized and in excellent condition. Imported to the USA post 1986. The Canadian revolver is original with lots of finish wear but is still tight and sound.

Nice shooting. Are you using 174 grain cast bullets? These revolvers shoot low with the usual 145 grain American loads.

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The load used was a bullet cast from an old NEI #169a mould. 2.0 grains of Bullseye approximates the .380 Mk 1 service load, 200 grain bullet at 650 fps. At 25 yards slow fire it groups pretty well, if a tad high.

I quite like the bullet. While designed to duplicate the service slug of the British Empire's 38/200 load, 3.0 grains of Unique gives the same 700 FPS that the old 38 Special 200 grain Super Police loads did. The bullet has more of a secant ogive rather than hemispherical nose of the Lyman 358430. It may be even more likely to yaw. In my opinion, the Brits seemed to have a knack for designing bullets that were nasty or effective, depending on your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Not to be recommended

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

the Brits seemed to have a knack for designing bullets that were nasty or effective

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The old soft lead bullets obturated nicely and travelling slow didn't lead like we do now days. They flattened out some when hitting too...

I had a chinwag with a British WW2 veteran many years ago at an AGCA show in Birmingham, Alabama. He stopped because I had a couple of Enfield revolvers in my glass case for sale at the time. The discussion turned to the relative unpopularity of the cartridge in the USA. He told me that he witnessed many Germans and Italians being shot by soldiers with Enfield No.2 and S&W .38-200 revolvers from North Africa through Italy and Western Europe and he never saw one get up afterwards. You really have to reload and cast the heavier bullets since the prevalent American loading is still the 145-grain RN bullet load.

Jim, I recently caught that film clip you mentioned with RM Goering surrendering his revolver to US forces. It looked like a big Colt New Service in .45 to me. He didn't look happy handing it over either!

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Jim, I recently caught that film clip you mentioned with RM Goering surrendering his revolver to US forces. It looked like a big Colt New Service in .45 to me. He didn't look happy handing it over either!

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No, very unhappy. I always wondered what happened to that revolver. It was hard to see and even look at if you tried to stop it, thought it was an M&P type frame... I'd still love to handle that revolver.

The point in that story was always that he was a "Gun guy" which I would think would go undisputed. After all he was an aristocrat and the head Jäger for Germany for decades. He wrote hunting laws that still stand...

Goring's S&W was an M&P (now K frame) 38 Special.
Google goerings guns
It is in the West Point Army Museum

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Originally Posted by green

Goring's S&W was an M&P (now K frame) 38 Special.

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That's what I thought... West point, OK.

That FTR mark is Australian. We still had some S&W's in Australia and certainly in NZ in the mid to late 60's while I was there. Lots of spares too. All of those that we had were phosphated too. Real mixed bag of Enfields, No2 Brownings - not too common, S&W's plus some No2 Brownings captured from the Indonesians. Said to have been made there but the intelligence people weren't having any of it. They came from Jordan with skimmed off slide marks and Indon markings engraved. But that is another untold story

Got the letter from the Smith & Wesson historian.

Except for the post war proofs, the revolver is like it left Springfield in May of 1940. As someone surmised earlier, it is one of a shipment that went to South Africa early in the war.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...5&d=1686055785

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...6&d=1686055805