London trip- Pattern room or similar visit help

Good afternoon,

We are doing a family vacation the last week of August and first week of September to London for the first few days and then off to Italy for the remainder of the trip.

I always wanted to see the old Pattern Room but I don't believe that exists or is accessible any longer. I see there is a Royal Armouries Museum and it appears that some of the old Pattern Room collection may be housed there.

On my last trip I toured the Imperial War Museum and The Churchill War Rooms which were spectacular.

Where can I see the old Pattern Room Collection or a portion of what used to be the Pattern Room or am I out of luck?

Any insight or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you,

Brian

It has moved to Leeds

About 200 miles and 4 hours (by car) each way from London.

Upcoming Events | Royal Armouries

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

It has moved to Leeds

About 200 miles and 4 hours (by car) each way from London.

Upcoming Events | Royal Armouries

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Thank you Alan!! That gives me perspective on just how far Leeds is from London. I'll look into options for train travel. I would love to see the collection.

Is the Royal Small Arms Factory worth a visit?

Thank you,

Brian

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Originally Posted by Brian B

Thank you Alan!! That gives me perspective on just how far Leeds is from London. I'll look into options for train travel. I would love to see the collection.

Is the Royal Small Arms Factory worth a visit?

Thank you,

Brian

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Train journey (London to Leeds) is about 2 1/4 hours + taxi at either end.

~09:00 hrs departure is premium communter time and will cost ~ GBP £180 (one way) per person

~11:00 hrs and the cost comes down to ~ GBP £80 (one way)

Train Timetable | Rail.Ninja

You can (apparently) get tickets from GBP £39 but all sorts of conditions and they never seem to actually be available when you try to book them

Hello Brian. I hope you have a great holiday. One thing to add to what Alan has already said is that the PRC was gifted to the Nation & is now stored in purpose converted premises adjacent to the Royal Armouries site. It is no longer known as The Pattern Room Collection, but as The National Firearms Collection. More importantly, although the Royal Armouries is open to the public every day during regular opening hours, the NFC requires a specific appointment to see it. IIRC, & if they have not changed things in the last few years, an appointment slot lasts a couple of hours. But unfortunately you can't just turn up at the RA & expect to see the NFC unless you have prior booked. I'm pretty sure there will be info on how to book via the RA website. You would likely deal with Jonathan Ferguson who is a very helpful & pleasant chap.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Train journey (London to Leeds) is about 2 1/4 hours + taxi at either end.

~09:00 hrs departure is premium communter time and will cost ~ GBP £180 (one way) per person

~11:00 hrs and the cost comes down to ~ GBP £80 (one way)

Train Timetable | Rail.Ninja

You can (apparently) get tickets from GBP £39 but all sorts of conditions and they never seem to actually be available when you try to book them

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Thank you Alan for the additional information. It is most helpful. I did reserve some tickets for the Royal Armouries Museum. I am checking train tickets now to see if I can make it work.

Thank you,

Brian

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Hello Brian. I hope you have a great holiday. One thing to add to what Alan has already said is that the PRC was gifted to the Nation & is now stored in purpose converted premises adjacent to the Royal Armouries site. It is no longer known as The Pattern Room Collection, but as The National Firearms Collection. More importantly, although the Royal Armouries is open to the public every day during regular opening hours, the NFC requires a specific appointment to see it. IIRC, & if they have not changed things in the last few years, an appointment slot lasts a couple of hours. But unfortunately you can't just turn up at the RA & expect to see the NFC unless you have prior booked. I'm pretty sure there will be info on how to book via the RA website. You would likely deal with Jonathan Ferguson who is a very helpful & pleasant chap.

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Thank you Roger for the kind sentiment and for the additional information. I will reach out to see if I can book additional access to the NFC. It would be a shame to go to all the trouble of getting there to only find out that I can't see what I would like to see the most.

Thank you for the help,

Brian

It's not always the easiest thing to find out what the cheapest train ticket options are in the UK for getting from A to B. Tickets booked in advanced are normally cheaper than ones booked on the day but may have more restrictions on them.

You might find it better to fly to Leeds, it all depends on your personal circumstances etc.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

It's not always the easiest thing to find out what the cheapest train ticket options are in the UK for getting from A to B. Tickets booked in advanced are normally cheaper than ones booked on the day but may have more restrictions on them.

You might find it better to fly to Leeds, it all depends on your personal circumstances etc.

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Flying is even more expensive than the train at the moment, probably double the most expensive train ticket, and time wise, only the same duration if going from London City, as the train journey from KX to Leeds is only about the same as the check-in time to boarding time for an internal flight.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Brian B

I will reach out to see if I can book additional access to the NFC. It would be a shame to go to all the trouble of getting there to only find out that I can't see what I would like to see the most.

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You'll need to use the enquires email address on the RA website as there is no obvious method of booking or arranging a visit to the NFC on the website.

The National Army Museum and the Wallace collection in London are well worth a visit. Not so impressed with the Imperial War Museum these days.

You can also do the Tank Museum in Bovington and Duxford for aircraft as day trips from London

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Originally Posted by 55recce

The National Army Museum and the Wallace collection in London are well worth a visit. Not so impressed with the Imperial War Museum these days.

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Unfortunately, the main IWM museum site at Lambeth, along with the IWM site at Duxford have become victims of "professional museum staff" appointments that seem to be a world away from those who were charge in the days of yore, like the esteemed Noble Frankland for example.
All very sad, but its the modern way.
The RAF Museum is another example of almost museum vandalism with the changes that have taken place there in the name of modern thinking.

Brian
You might want to try the Combined Military Services Museum at Maldon in Essex Combined Military Services Museum You can probably catch a train there from London (48 miles). It has a massive collection of military firearms, ordnance, grenades, spy equipment. Much of the collection comes from the old MOD Donnington collection. I would rate it as a close 2nd to the National Firearms Collection at Leeds. Check the times for opening.
Nigel

I have enjoyed travelling to Leeds and Birmingham by double decker bus. Two man crew, one drives and the other sells tea, coffee and snacks. Just about as fast as the train and a better view of the country.
My first visit in the 80's to the Nottingham Pattern Room required a letter requesting admittance and a reason for the visit. Looking around and kicking the tires won't cut it. They also ran me through Interpol, RCMP and FBI review. I also had to give two different dates for the visit as Military classes given on site had priority. Things got better for later visits as I got to know Herby.
I understand that there is a 15 pound charge per day.

Is there still a school of infantry museum in Warminster? Remember going there as a kid and being shown around by Major Myatt....

When a museum is described as having been made "interactive" I usually think that it is a sign that the museum may have been messed up.

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Originally Posted by 55recce

Is there still a school of infantry museum in Warminster? Remember going there as a kid and being shown around by Major Myatt....

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Would he have been there in 1986? We rolled up at the gate en famille and were given a quick tour by a Capt. or Maj. _______ There was an older W.O. as well who was apparently the actual curator/conservator. I ventured to guess that it must have been useful to have armourers available to at hand to maintain the collection, but he replied with a snort that he wouldn't let them anywhere near the stuff! Such are the errors of youth! :ugh::D

Thank you all for the excellent insight and suggestions. I fell behind on the quotes and so I added my "Thanks" to each of your thoughtful posts. I have some more research and homework to do. Whatever I end up seeing I know I will enjoy myself. I may be landing in London and immediately heading to Leeds. Our timeframe is tight and trying to be as efficient as possible.

Thank you all and stay tuned,

Brian

Update!!

I submitted an inquiry to the RA to which I received an immediate response. They forwarded my email to the NFC department. I received an email from Jonathan Ferguson much quicker than I expected. He was very apologetic as they are unable to allow me to see the collection. They are short staffed the day I planned on visiting the RA and couldn't accommodate me. They were all so responsive and kind. He suggested that I reach to as early as possible prior to my next trip to see if I could view the collection. I'm a bit disappointed but what can you do.

I will try some of the other options offered by the group. Thank you all for the help and suggestions!!

Brian

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

GBP £180 (one way) per person

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WOW...and here I am griping about the new ~$50 tolls one way, the length of I66.

Serious researchers can get access to the firearms collection at Leeds, but the general public are not encouraged.

The trouble with the Royal Armouries North is that it is placed in Leeds, an "interesting" train ride away from all the places and people who matter.

The former Enfield Lock site contains not much trace of its former use, now likes to call itself Enfield Island Village - not a very 'nice' area to go. I've driven past it many times, usually on the alternative route back from the office, but I've never bothered to cross the bridge.


The School of Infantry Museum still exists, but it can't call itself a museum as that wouldn't justify funding from the defence vote. Officially, it's a reference collection for the Small Arms School. It is possible to visit (I've been at least twice) but it takes some doing as it's inside the active military base. Again, the ice-cream sucking public are not wanted, and not encouraged.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

WOW...and here I am griping about the new ~$50 tolls one way, the length of I66.

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Yes the price of train tickets in the UK is embarrassingly expensive and does nothing to encourage people to use the train.

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Originally Posted by Brian B

They are short staffed the day I planned on visiting the RA and couldn't accommodate me.

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You could email back and suggest visiting a day or two before or after the original date that you suggested and see what response you get.

If you are travelling widely in the UK buy a Britrail pass before you go. Makes rail travel less expensive and easier.

I'm surprised that no on mentioned it, but if you travel after 9:30 the prices are less than half.
Also, in many cases, it is cheaper to get a "cheap day return" than a one way ticket.
AND learn how to read a British rail way timetable. You will save a lot of money. The 9.35 you took might get to your destination before the 9 am and much cheaper as well.
I sure miss the days of Herbie at Enfield lock and Nottingham.
Herb and I were sitting on the bank of Enfield lock with a pint in each hand when they announced the closure of the Enfield site.
The pub at the gate. RIFLES, sounded like a beehive and we both imagined a thousand plots by the workers to take things of value home.
I sure miss the Pattern Room, Herbie and the characters that I got to know through there over the years.

Thank you all for the information. I may take a trip to Maldon based on Nigel's suggestions. I'm only in London for three days and then heading to Italy. If get back there again, I will start earlier so that I can see the NFC at Leeds'

Brian

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Originally Posted by Warren

'm surprised that no on mentioned it, but if you travel after 9:30 the prices are less than half.

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Maybe you missed post #4


Train journey (London to Leeds) is about 2 1/4 hours + taxi at either end.

~09:00 hrs departure is premium communter time and will cost ~ GBP £180 (one way) per person

~11:00 hrs and the cost comes down to ~ GBP £80 (one way)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

Serious researchers can get access to the firearms collection at Leeds, but the general public are not encouraged.

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Indeed.
Only this week I was called by an agent asking if I'd be interested in a contract job in Bath, only wanted in office one per week, 4 days wfh. I can drive to Reading station in about 20 mins, which is only a 53min train journey to Bath station, then a 5min walk to office. But...........train ticket would be £160 return :madsmile: and when added to the £25 car charge for parking at Reading Station car park, it made no sense what so ever, even for just one day per week in office. Driving would about a quarter of that cost, but take a lot longer, and Bath city are doing its best to discourage use of the car, without a viable cost effective alternative.

When I graduated from High School in 1972 a good friend and I planned to tour Europe in camper van. We heard of a car park in London where you could buy a used van or car from other tourists who were ending their trip. There were mechanics on site to check out the vehicle and others who would help you with paperwork and insurance. It was a well known option to tour ol' Blighty and the continent and we started saving for the trip. We were both avid skiers and fell asleep every night with dreams of schussing down the slopes of Chamonix, Val d'Isère, Courchevel, Kitzbuhel, and Cortina d'Ampezzo to name a few. We worked hard to save up enough money and were fixing to leave when my friend announced he was engaged and needed his saved up money for the wedding and honeymoon. Drat! I couldn't afford the costs alone and looked for a compatible partner but never found one so I did the next best thing, I went to college.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

When I graduated from High School in 1972 a good friend and I planned to tour Europe in camper van. We heard of a car park in London where you could buy a used van or car from other tourists who were ending their trip. There were mechanics on site to check out the vehicle and others who would help you with paperwork and insurance. It was a well known option to tour ol' Blighty and the continent and we started saving for the trip. We were both avid skiers and fell asleep every night with dreams of schussing down the slopes of Chamonix, Val d'Isère, Courchevel, Kitzbuhel, and Cortina d'Ampezzo to name a few. We worked hard to save up enough money and were fixing to leave when my friend announced he was engaged and needed his saved up money for the wedding and honeymoon. Drat! I couldn't afford the costs alone and looked for a compatible partner but never found one so I did the next best thing, I went to college.

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No1 Son did something similar after University.

He took (most of) a year touring Australia - he started on the 'bottom right' of the country. He was staying in hostels and saw a car (small peugeot) advertised for $150, he called me up and asked if he should buy it - after some discussion we agreed that he would have it properly serviced and carry, plenty of water and 'off he went'.

He was pulled over by the Police for travelling with his window down and his arm 'outside' resting on the top of the door - apparently thats a big NO-NO !

Worked his way along the South Coast starting at Canberra, up the West coast (past Perth) picking prickly pears and castrating bulls (amongst other jobs), went off roading down dried up river beds & finally across the top to Darwin where he finished the trip and sold the car on a 'backpackers noticeboard, for $150.

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Originally Posted by Warren

I'm surprised that no on mentioned it, but if you travel after 9:30 the prices are less than half.
Also, in many cases, it is cheaper to get a "cheap day return" than a one way ticket.
AND learn how to read a British rail way timetable. You will save a lot of money. The 9.35 you took might get to your destination before the 9 am and much cheaper as well.
I sure miss the days of Herbie at Enfield lock and Nottingham.
Herb and I were sitting on the bank of Enfield lock with a pint in each hand when they announced the closure of the Enfield site.
The pub at the gate. RIFLES, sounded like a beehive and we both imagined a thousand plots by the workers to take things of value home.
I sure miss the Pattern Room, Herbie and the characters that I got to know through there over the years.

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It's history now Warren and you were lucky enough to be there. Put it down on paper even if you don't want to post it here.

Perhaps we should compile a list of "economical modes of transport in the UK" for those of us on a tight budget?

The cheapest form of transport has to be walking and for those who want to get from A to B in more haste try running. Then there is the bicycle option, being careful to avoid the many potholes and motorised vehicles.. There is the four legged option such as a horse, camel or elephant, assuming that one has access to such a beast. If none of those options appear attractive then, if one is willing for a little financial outlay, there is the bus.

I am sure that there are more options for the thrifty traveller in the UK that I have missed, please add.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I am sure that there are more options for the thrifty traveller in the UK that I have missed, please add.

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There is always "the thumb"

Just back from a week in the UK myself.
We visited Bletchley Park, home of the decoding efforts during WW2. We arrived mid afternoon; having driven (and Ferry) over from Paris that morning.
It's a worthwhile visit; very interesting and also slightly mindboggling! I could have done with being a bit less tired and having a bit more time to appreciate the details.

We had looked at taking a Rail holiday; Paris to London; then head North to see our friends. But the cost was just excessively expensive; so we drove.
By contrast; tomorrow I'm taking the TGV train from Paris to Bordeaux; 600kms covered in 2 hours 20 minutes for around 60 pounds! I think the UK really needs to update it's rail network.

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Originally Posted by 30Three

Just back from a week in the UK myself.
We visited Bletchley Park, home of the decoding efforts during WW2. We arrived mid afternoon; having driven (and Ferry) over from Paris that morning.
It's a worthwhile visit; very interesting and also slightly mindboggling! I could have done with being a bit less tired and having a bit more time to appreciate the details.

We had looked at taking a Rail holiday; Paris to London; then head North to see our friends. But the cost was just excessively expensive; so we drove.
By contrast; tomorrow I'm taking the TGV train from Paris to Bordeaux; 600kms covered in 2 hours 20 minutes for around 60 pounds! I think the UK really needs to update it's rail network.

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Sadly the rail network reflects the state of our country - ruined and in decline!

Update: We just returned from our Europe trip and we had a wonderful time. As I wasn't able to get into see the NFC I settled for a day at the British Museum and a tour of Westminster Abbey and Buckingham Palace. We then headed to Italy for the remainder of the trip. I always enjoy Europe and especially enjoyed seeing the kids have this experience for the first time. We'll be back and I will certainly reach out to the NFC staff earlier to see if I can get into see the collection.

Thank you all for the suggestions and comments. I appreciate the forum so much.

Brian

Anything left in the British Museum? Thought the staff had sold it all on ebay.