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I’m currently reading a book on US Military medicine during WWII. I was surprised to read that rejection rates for service were in excess of 40%. I did some checking of other sources and found numbers between 37% and 50%. I found that surprisingly as I just assumed they took almost everyone.
And then there’s today with a rejection rate of 77%.
I personally was tagged with a loss rate of 40% in my trainees. That was back about 15 years now at the end of my recruit teaching. We now have a wide open policy and I'll bet our losses aren't near that let alone 77%. I was aware that not everyone made it to WW1 even though many did use a back door approach if they were dedicated to going. Others used the same approach when they were set on not going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I was in the butts once scoring for a female recruit when the warrant officer came up to me and asked how she was doing. "She can't hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun" came my reply. The warrant then took out a pencil and punched a bunch of holes in the target and told me to score the target. "Even the pencil holes?" I asked. "What pencil holes!?!?" came his stern reply.
There are many reasons for rejection in wartime, medical/health is only one of many. Consider essential services, age, religion, race, politics, etc.
I wonder what exactly is the aggregation method here? If a man was rejected from Army Air Corps and Navy due to impaired eyesight without glasses, he was still eligible to be drafted into the Army and Marines. Would his rejection from the Air Corps or Navy be aggregated into the the overall rejection rate even though he was subsequently drafted into the other services? It strikes me that the data survey methods of the period might not have been sophisticated enough to differentiate.
Where my interest comes from is the experience of my father and myself. My father excelled in Naval ROTC and was selected for officer candidate school. He was near-sighted but hid that fact all the way through the selection boards by using edge refraction around the edge of the card used to cover the eye not being tested. That is, he moved the edge of the card over to where the eye being tested could resolve the test poster via edge refraction. He got all the way to OTC before a smart chief barked, "Get that card over your other eye!!!" and he was discovered. They rejected him and sent him to boot camp, where he scored sharpshooter on his range time with the Garand and was top of his class. In fact, when George Patton visited Great Lakes induction center, as top of his class, my father carried the class' guidon and received Patton's salute.
However, soon after graduation he ended up in the detailer's office being told the Navy had no position for him because of his glasses. At that moment the detailer noticed that my father had a rare and mysterious skill (for the period): At the beginning of his senior year at high school he was caught in some mischief during "study hall" and sent to typing class as punishment. Men weren't typically taught that skill and he was the only guy in the class. But that skill saved him from being discharged and dumped into the draft pool. He ended up spending the war as a Navy classified documents technician at the radar research school on Navy Pier in Chicago. He would take his lunches down to the end of the pier and watch paddle-wheel aircraft carriers Wolverine and Sable ply Lake Michigan doing carrier qualifications, and thus witnessed many of the aircraft we are now fishing out, going into the drink when fledgling birdmen misjudged their landings. But he missed discharge by THAT much.
Me? I was of the generation who watched their numbers for the Vietnam draft approach. I said to meself, "You need to find a better approach than humping the jungles!" As a young man who was absolutely bonkers over aircraft (still am) I joined the Civil Air Patrol and began training to fly so that I'd have a marketable skill for the Air Force. Somewhere along the way a gentle CAP officer took me aside and asked, "Hasn't anyone told you that they don't accept people with impaired vision for aircrew?" Midlife crisis while still in my teens. I dropped back and waited for my draft number to come up but it never did. I was of the first year's worth of young men who weren't drafted. But for that kind officer I would have attempted selection to the Air Force and would have been rejected.
My father and I would have made two rejection statistics if not for circumstances.
Bob
Passed all the tests and physicals to join the ADF - Army as a grunt then the Airforce as a firey got to the signing the dotted line then basically made up my mind I was having too good of a time with fast motorbikes & faster women!
Probably disappointed my dad after his WWII service as my brother was in the RAAF at the time (He did 20 years) I did 3 years in the cadets and loved it but in early adulthood with my then rebellious nature I feel the writing was on the wall of me being DOD'd.
You can't tell for sure, I saw lots of those guys do well once they fell in behind the right guy. You might have made RSM...never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I'm proceeding through the book very slowly. It is somewhat boring in these early stages. Now I don't know how accurate it is but from what I'm understanding, the Army got all the draftees. The Navy and Marines all got volunteers, those who didn't want to go to the army or go through the draft. Their rejection rates were however very similar to the Army's.
During the lead up to the war, and this is where I am now in the book, the Army had rejection standards which were quite strict. If you didn't meet the standards, you were rejected. But as time went on and they needed more men faster, they decided that some things which could be corrected to meet standards would be accepted. These included missing teeth and poor eyesight. So, they would take these individuals now, give them glasses and dentures.
I actually had to put the book down the first time I started reading it. I had a PTSD moment and came close to passing out. This leads me to believe that the book will get much better after I get through the boring introduction to military medicine. Very descriptive account of a bullet wound to the stomach which led to massive internal bleeding, blood spurting everywhere and removing the clotted blood from the abdomen by hand. 3 1/2-gallon transfusion. My surgeon told me I more or less burst when he cut into me, my chest was full of clotted blood, and they transfused 5 1/2 gallons to me. It was a bit much while eating lunch. Over it now.
I have only learnt through reading allot of my 1st Ed WWI books on the AIF I have that all notions of war being clean and heroic are out the window todays society is still desensitised to it as they do not see the real face of armed conflict.
With how it throws one back to their most primal actions to stay alive, I fully understand the training and camaraderie but nothing I feel completely prepares you for what it is actually like at that pointy end.
I chose 1st ed WWI AIF as later editions of books can end up being heavily edited with descriptions, at times in my books I have to put them down and walk away as what the combatants are going through beggars description no matter how many lines they use, 19th century tactics V's 20th century weapons.
Then with WWII you get into New Guinea, New Georgia, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Peleliu the island campaigns again brutal & bloody no those of you that went to fight the good fight in any era my unflinching respect and also to those as well that have served.
With the old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa by Sledge. Just brutal. Worth a second read but that's a tough hill to climb.
Bob
Wow, you offered up the full measure, no? Words won't do, but thank you for for what you gave and are still giving for my freedom and security.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Bob
Bob, I think you misunderstood. I didn't suffer a war wound, My aorta ruptured 5 years ago. Long story, probably on here somewhere, 5% survival rate and I beat the odds. I'm usually good with it but it was a major shock to my system and occasionally hits me but rarely this hard. I am a veteran but suffered no wounds.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65444
I read through it a bit. What the surgeon told me was not exactly accurate or perhaps what I believed he told me. I actually talked with my cardiologist at my 3 1/2-year checkup. First time I was up to actually asking questions. I had ruptured at home. The CT scans showed my chest was full of clotted blood, so I didn't start to seep on the operating table.
I'm in a Facebook support group now where I try to help others although the vast majority have been diagnosed with an aneurysm and are under doctors care monitoring it. Mine was 6.1cm when it ruptured. Most get surgery between 5-5.5cm. I had never been diagnosed. It has no symptoms so most either die never knowing they have it or it is found by accident during a check for something else.
A good read for you Bob.
For me, the military duty was something I had to accomplish. A MUST!
My family has had so many military... All officers, a legionnaire, every Ovidio since the 15th century died in war (against Turks, in Africa, against Austria...).
I could never miss on that and, also, on being an officer.
Reading a lot of historical books about WWI and WWII, the Alpini and so on, my choice was almost a natural one.
I was a skydiver, but I wanted the feathered hat.
I WANTED TO BE AN ALPINO AND AN OFFICER!!!
I quit university because they were talking about ending military duty, hid all the broken bones (American Football in A series since 16), allergies, even a light short sightedness.
I WANTED TO BE AN ALPINO AND AN OFFICER!!!
And I did it.
And guess what? It has been a life changer for me.
I am so grateful that I could be there and do that. And get to know great fellas who have become dear to me like my brother. Also an Alpino officer.
It was a no brainer and it was confirmed.
I still remember all those kids who tried everything to be cut out of the enlistment lists when I was called to medical exams at 18, who went any lengths to show they twisted a fingernail at 5 and then were traumatised.
I despised them. And still don't like them much today.
Those coming from the mountains were mostly different, though.
They wanted to go to the same Alpini battalions and regiments their fathers and grandfathers had been to.
They just were the different, wonderful kids I would have the honour of commanding a few years later.
Alpin, jo mame!
Well, I'm glad you made it through!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Bob
Thanks for the recommendation!Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Bob
Needless to say but you beat the odds. I believe in Divine Intervention, your an example. I admire your work with the support group it shows your character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I was a 9 time state champion in track in field in High School... High jump, High hurdles and Low hurdles my freshman, sophomore and junior years. My senior year I graduated in early January and missed the High school season to run the indoor season / exhibition with the University of Michigan. I had a offer and accepted to train for the US Olympic team. Upon making the team we trained for the 1980 Olympic Games in Moscow. Our 1st big outing was the 1979 Pan American Games that were being held in San Juan, Puerto Rico in July. The Final Olympic team trials were to be held in Oregon, early summer of 1980. If you made it next stop..... Moscow. But before President Carter could crush me I'd had my 1st real in depth physical after the Pan Am games where I found out I had what they called PVCs of the heart, those extra beats that disrupt the regular heart rhythm, sometimes causing a sensation of a fluttering or a skipped beat in the chest. I never really noticed it just felt like having nerves or butterflies before a match.
All of this competing was costly to a working family. I'd talked with a Army recruiter quite a few times and really wanted to see if I had what it took to be a Ranger. PVC shot that down before the sound left my lips. Now that was Crushing !
Can't speak to the past, but currently we have issues with young potential recruits being denied due to their honesty.
These poor kids are being told in school its ok to be 100% honest with their mental health and its all fine, with the result being them getting eviscerated in the real world which doesn't work that way. The Canadian Forces asks a question along the lines of 'have you ever thought about or attempted committing suicide'. If they answer 'Yes' their application is dismissed. Many of them would actually be excellent recruits, but due to one question many are rejected. The other big hang up for most of them is passing the fitness test, which even though my out of shape body can pass with ease, somehow these teenagers can't.
Another good book is Red Blood, Black Sand by Chuck Tatum. Some of the book was in The Pacific, I believe part 8 when Iwo was attacked and Basilone was killed. I believe the books by Sledge mentioned above and this one were the basis for the movie series.
I've read elsewhere that a lot of the rejections came from the serious nutritional deficits faced by many during the Depression. That had also the ripple effect that many hungry kids were also more likely to have suffered from diseases that left a mark, or lost teeth or other such debilitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
My father's call up papers landed on the doormat from the army when he was 18 years old in 1952 and he fully expected to serve his country and fight in the Korean war. If he had been caught lying to try and get out of it the penalty was a £30 fine or 3 months in prison or both and if he had ignored his call up that also may have resulted in a prison sentence. My father went for his medical by army doctors and explained that he had suffered serious ear injuries in both ears during WW2, was suffering from what today is called PTSD due to his experiences in WW2 and was also suffering from recurring nightmares. After examining my father the army doctors graded my father as unfit for any military service due to the injuries he had received in WW2 but they said that he would have to repeat the process 6 months later. The result of the 2nd medical was the same as the first.
After my father's passing I found his call up papers that had been saved from 1952. I assume that there was also a form that had to be filled in and was handed in when he went for his medical.
One of my uncles in WWII volunteered for service and was rejected as medically unfit but that did not deter some non understanding cads sending him a white feather my other uncle who did join said in passing they also cold tarred and feathered his brother!
My rejected uncle was a kind person but was not intellectually adept only ever holding down menial jobs through life never married and lived in the same house with his mother for his whole life until he passed, we placed his coffin in Tenindewa where he spent much of his youth.
Those who were and are unfit, deserve any respect. I am really annoyed by the "smart a*ses" who did tricks and "spared" one year, and now they play the wise guys saying that it would have been lost time, a waste of opportunities, that they don't take any orders from idiots...
They don't know jack and judge.
Those people I still don't trust. And don't like.
It may sound exaggerated, but when we hire someone who did his military duty, we seldomly have trouble with internal discipline, respect of rules and hierarchy, willingness to go the extra mile.
We don't see that in many of the others.
With young people, I am taking a liking for them.
If you know how to address them, and set an example, they are good.
The older smart a*ses are worse.
Still, some "naja" (Italian jargon for military duty) would benefit most people.
Softness is not going to help anyone in this world.
First to say it nowadays? Women. 25-40 years old women.
That is very funny and intimately satisfying too.:madsmile:
---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------
Bastar+ds!Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
South Africa national service was a great leveller and integrator. At university it was clear who had done national service and who hadn't. Even the few females doing national service in those years showed the difference.
Knew a father and son who both succumbed to the same condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Glad you made it!
I have met and spoken to several South Africans who did national service in the apartheid years. One chap told me that of those called up for national service a certain percentage of the intake were conscripted into the South African Police and if you were selected for the police you had no say in the matter. He went onto say that he didn't wish to risk being conscripted into the South African Police and, therefore, volunteered for the regular South African army as a means of avoiding any chance of being conscripted into the South African police.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
When I asked another South African that I knew about this and who had done South African national service in the army he contradicted all of the above about the percentage of the intake being conscripted into the South African police.
I was left being none the wiser what the case actually was?
Later years in national service there was a very small percentage going to the Police, but that was voluntary. I never followed that up as it was part of the call-up process - recruiting after they reported to their units, almost umknown to most of us. Often legal type with qualifications IIRC. That was 30 years ago.