Auction House Misrepresents Type 95 Shin Gunto.

I have put this up as a warning to those who are about to buy a Japanese sword, mainly those buying one for the first time.

Please please please, do some research first, there are forums out there with members who have years of experience, they are happy to steer novices in the right direction.

Have a look at this auction house lot number 47.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...a-b0a801264bff

Best wishes,
Ian.

PS I'm happy to list the things that are wrong for anyone who needs to know. This is a Chinese fake.

I know virtually nothing about Japanese swords but this one screams 'fake' to me.

Hi Sapper,

it's a real mess, but somebody has paid £600 (GBP) for it. There is nothing of this sword that is worth anything, maybe scrap metal. I wrote to the auction house and told them it was a Chinese fake, they still called it Japanese. You can't trust auction houses, well, not this one.
Have you seen some of the commissions they charge? I've seen some close to 30% (including tax and online charge). I reckon some auction houses are making close to 50% with both seller's and buyer's commissions.

Regards,
Ian.

I also know very little about swords but that cast aluminum handle really looks fake and definitely does not look "period correct". Ian-could you fill us in on the other things you see that are wrong? Salt Flat

Hi Salt Flat, only too happy to oblige.

The Bo-hi or fuller(groove in blade) has a squarer section and different length compared to a genuine type 95. Probably cut by a grinding wheel, see the end of the fuller in the photo of the serial number.
The tsuka(hilt) looks to have induced wear(rubbed down to look worn) or is just extremely badly cast and without a trace of paint.
There is no habaki(wedge that holds sword tight in scabbard).
There is no inspection stamp after the serial number. The serial number is the wrong font and in the wrong location, it should be between the fuller and the back edge of the blade.
The tsuba(hand guard) is badly cast
If it was genuine, and the serial number was correct, it would have been made at the Nagoya Arsenal early in the war. The serial numbers applied by the Nagoya Arsenal appear upside down when viewed with the sword edge down. They are the only arsenal to do this. I am told that the sarute(loop at end of hilt) is too long and the hanger on the scabbard is too far down.

The sword has no value to a collector, perhaps scrap metal. I have now learnt two new indicators of a fake sword, they are the last two on the list. This sword is a disgrace and would put any buyer on guard even if they were not experienced collectors. They are getting harder to spot and I'm no expert.

Best wishes,
Ian

PS I've written again to the auction house, telling them that I'm shocked to see they sold this sword as Japanese after I told them it was Chinese. What's the betting they won't reply.

Unfortunately fakery abounds as the values for original milsurps climb. The other problem I've found with online sales is with accurate grading. I was looking at a P14 to add to my collection with a high price and glowing description of how rare it was to find these rifles in 'Fine' condition but a close look at the pictures of the rifle showed that it was somewhere between 'Poor' and 'Field' grade. I used the Contact the Seller option to explain to him what condition and why I thought the rifle was in. I received a response from the seller that he was going to sue me for libel if I contacted him again. He obviously has no understanding of what constitutes libel but I left him alone as it was obvious he had no interest in changing his auction's description.

Hi Sapper,

your comments ring so true. In the UK, I'm sure that auction houses, although selling for the owner, are required to accurately describe the item for sale otherwise it's misrepresentation. I must look up the legal position. It would be so nice to report these auction houses to a body that will take appropriate action, that would improve things!

I looked again on the auction house website and found another Japanese sword Type 98 in the same sale described as follows, "Very small chip on in the blade about 20 cm from the handle. You would really have to look to see it. It does not detract this from being a very nice collectors’ piece." The estimate was £1000 - £2000, didn't sell, I'm not surprised.

Here's the link.
Lot 5 | Cadmore Auctions

Ian.

Having spent several years in the used car business I liken on line auctions to that unsavory endeavor. The fact of the matter is, condition is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. ANY seller who's looking to make profit has the most beautiful pampered and barely used item that ever existed. I don't blame them in a sense but fact is fact and crooks abound. These are the very reasons I never have and never will buy a firearm sight unseen. Many that I know have and it's generally a 50-50 proposition. Remember boys and girls like all manner of things CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Hello Bill,

you're quite right, "let the buyer beware" has been around for a long long time and yet so many people get caught out. I checked out all my guns before I bought them.

I've now passed my shotguns to my son as I haven't bothered to renew my ticket. My sniper rifle is currently for sale through my local Firearms dealer, I'm getting a bit past laying down on the deck.

Ian.

Isn't there some rule/law that once the hammer falls at an auction there is no come-back? But how that may apply if an auction lot was found to be inappropriately described I don't know?

Fools and their money are very quickly parted.

I briefly looked at a couple of explanations of the law and yes you're right about the hammer falling. It is said that although the contract is with the seller, the auction house must not misrepresent the item. Now with on-line auctions, lots of potential buyers are unlikely to visit the saleroom to inspect the item and there really should be something in the way of protection if the item is misrepresented, as in this case. I'll plod on with my enquiries.

On the type 98 sword at the same auction house, they mention a nick not far from the hilt, they don't mention the one further down nor the ones on the kissaki (tip). I love their expression about the nick they mentioned, "you have to look to see it", you have to look to see anything!

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Originally Posted by IanS

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PS I've written again to the auction house, telling them that I'm shocked to see they sold this sword as Japanese after I told them it was Chinese. What's the betting they won't reply.

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They might just ban you for your lèse-majesté! :D

As happened to someone I know when he pointed out a similar "error".

As you say, they might cancel me. If they do, I'll see if I can embarrass them in some way, their choice.

They didn't reply to my message, thought that might be the case. I just hope that somebody with enough knowledge of these swords tells the buyer it's a fake and he takes it back to the auction house. At £600.00, he must believe it's genuine.
He has also been ripped off with the commission, it's 29.9%, this auction house is making big money and still seems to need to misrepresent items.

I've got seven swords, two I bought from a well established dealer, they are my best two and in good polish but not cheap. The others I bought at auctions, all need some work doing, from which I'm learning.

Just spotted another fake being sold as a genuine WWII type 95. I've written to this auction house too, telling them what's wrong with the sword and that I believe it to be a Chinese fake,let's see what they do.

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Originally Posted by IanS

they are my best two and in good polish but not cheap

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Some 10 years ago my friend sent his 15th century samurai sword to Japan to be cleaned up a bit and re polished as that is a very specialised art in itself at the time all those years ago I asked him its monetary value he replied $30,000 Aud.
He was not short of a quid having sold his computer business also he has in his collection he has a legit M40, L42, M85, HT & T rifles.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

$30,000 Aud.

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I guess that price would be best done to spec, help increase value.

Interesting thread, I have known a Militaria dealer since I was Kid who is based in Liverpool, his main interest is Japanese swords, so if I ever do find one at the right price he's more than happy to give me info on it etc.

Auction houses ...... Well, I've recently helped out one in the North West, as they had a rifle that they thought the real deal, I doubted it from the start and with the help of a member in Australia it confirmed my doubts, see thread in the Enfield part of the forum 'Australian No6 Mk1'

Then again its not just auction houses in the UK, Some established dealers go out there way to tell a yarn about certain items, I've seen auction items up close and then see them sold by dealers with added bits plus complete makeover and a story to go with it.......

The worst ones are fake German sniper rifles that used to go through one auction in particular, then theres the abundance of Commando knives, I bought one from a well known dealer in the UK, pictures on line did make it look like the real deal, but when it arrived I didn't have to take it all out of the packaging, just the hilt proved it was as Ian says "Scrap"

Just glad I'm on the down side of collecting now, apart from Larkspur or Clansman radios....

Hello bigduke6,

it's a nasty old world out there. There's so many Japanese type 95 swords that are fake.

I've just let my FAC expire and my No4 Mk1T is with an RFD for sale, my son has my shotguns. One is a Damascus hammer gun, it's in very good condition, the bores are beautiful and it's been nitro proofed. Not like the one I used on the farm, pitted to hell and had to be locked with a hand inserted pin (through-bolt). The pin was attached to the trigger guard with a piece of snare wire! It was Damascus too with the same cross-bolt breech. My current hammer gun is pre 1904, it carries the old black powder proof mark, it's probably mid 1890's.

You don't happen to be a radio amateur do you, being into old radios?

Ian

I wrote to another auction house about a fake NCO sword and they wrote back thanking me for telling them it was a fake. They have changed the description to " Chinese copy". I was quite surprised as I didn't expect them to do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by IanS

They have changed the description to " Chinese copy". I was quite surprised

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I would think the only reason they wouldn't is because they have an in house pompous appraiser that's a self declared expert and won't budge on his opinion. Otherwise it's a good business move to re-evaluate.

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Originally Posted by IanS

You don't happen to be a radio amateur do you, being into old radios?

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Ian, I don't class myself as a radio ham, but more a Military Radio Enthusiast who is licensed ...... I've bought a Ligtweight FFR Landrover (1973) , So intend to kit it it out with either Clansman Readio or Larkspur, Have got all the family of Clansman and have started to acquire the Larkspur set ups.

That's interesting, you'll have to put up a picture or two of the lightweight. I was an apprentice with the Rover company at their London depot in Fulham, I worked on Landrovers as well as the cars. The last Model Landrover I worked on would have been a Series 2, I also worked on the 1 Ton Forward control model, the first 110" WB, before they were supplied to the army.

Incidentally, the Chinese fake sword that was for sale today didn't sell. I don't know if it was because the auctioneer kept the reserve set before I told them it was Chinese, or if nobody wanted it.

Ian