I just picked this up at a large show. It's been a minute since I researched T Rifles and Scopes. What does everyone think I have here?
https://postimg.cc/gallery/csdjx74
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I just picked this up at a large show. It's been a minute since I researched T Rifles and Scopes. What does everyone think I have here?
https://postimg.cc/gallery/csdjx74
Nice find. It's a genuine Savage production 4 T converted by H&H. It has travelled a bit, & the scope & bracket, though genuine are not the original issue with this rifle. The E prefix serial on the Rose Brothers bracket indicates in was originally fitted to a 44 BSA. The scope is a Houghton Butcher Mk1. Judging by the serial it is one of the last Mk1's they made, before switching to the Mk2. The cheekpiece I'm afraid, looks like a home made job, & replacing it with a proper one would be one of my first jobs if I owned your rifle......but that may just be me. The scope has been refurbished at some point in its life; those notches cut into the ocular lens retaining ring have been put there by a civvy restorer to ease unscrewing it, although one sees a lot of scopes that show this feature & it doesn't bother me unduly. The forend of your rifle is a replacement, as Savage rifles were almost always stocked up in stained birch, & your forend is beech. However, it may well have been on a long time. If you take off the butt from your rifle you should see the last four digits of the rifle it was factory fitted to on the tenon that fits into the butt socket. If they match with the serial of your rifle it's the original butt.
Is there a scope serial number on the butt under the back of the bolt/cocking piece? Many Savage rifles were left scopeless & so would not have a scope number here.
Beautiful rifle,
The most important question: Does it have a 6 Groove, 4 groove, 2 Groove or 5 groove barrel?
Thanks Roger. I appreciate the input. The number is not on the tang of the stock for the scope. I will examine the rifle when it arrives. It's currently in shipping back to my residence. I was surprised it lasted almost 3 days at a show. Everyone thought it was a repop? I knew the rifle was at a minimum a real early Savage and the pads for the scope and mount were legit. The scope is in much better condition than the Mk 1/2 hybrid I currently have on my T Sniper.
@Lee Enfield I will examine the bore too when I get it back.
One of those that predates the "T" and "TR" markings.
Any Enfield examiner's marks or "S" on the cutoff block?
Noteworthy that those early rifles were not refinished after conversion, the pads being just chemical(?) blued.
My theory is these early uncompleted rifles, if this is one of them, had their pads fitted at RSAF Enfield after the trials rifles were done and when the foundry supplying brackets was bombed out and the supply dried up until the next foundry/foundries got into production, these rifles were probably put into store to get them out of the way. Once H&H was set up in production and the supply of TR rifles directed to them, I'm guessing those early leftover rifles were forgotten and just sat in store until the post-war clearances began.
Whatever the details of that, and they may well be different , I suggest an interruption in the supply of brackets and therefore in the whole conversion process is the most plausible explanation for these half-converted orphans. RSAF Enfield would have had lots of other work going on and probably no space for things that weren't being used. It might be that fitting of pads continued for some period of time before a decision was made to stop, and if so that would explain the fair number of these rifles that seem to have survived.
Such an interruption in production would also help to explain the very low numbers of No4(T)s on hand in that inventory taken in late 1943 which I've quoted before.
In my estimation if a Savage No4T has a "T", "TR" or the cutoff "S", the markings have been added later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
: wouldn't a Savage No4T butt stock pre-date the serial marking under the socket shelf?Quote:
Hey RogerP:
Too many legit rifles have been "ruined" by owners/retailers trying to "correct" their "out of spec" rifles.
FYI
I've seen a Savage with "converted trials rifle" inspection markings on the front pad, but believe that the pad was probably replaced at some point.
This issue of the rifle serial number on the butt tenon on Savage rifles has come up recently in another thread. My rifles have been so marked (last four digits) & another forummer who owns two Savage T's removed the butts on his to check & found the same thing. A few other people who have these rifles have noted the same too. I suspect this practice (at H&H) must have started before the practice of marking the T, S etc. However, early Savage conversions do seem to the sport the S51 on the butt semi pistol grip, which I have taken to indicate that this also appeared earlier than the other 'typical' markings. Obvious exceptions to this (bearing the S51) would be any RSAF Enfield converted Savage rifles. I would agree absolutely with lee enfield that if I saw an early Savage with T, TR, S & so forth, I would be looking at it VERY critically.
Savage rifles were never marked "TR" unless done by an enterprising Armourer, (or uninformed faker), after the fact. It was a marking used on BSA rifles to separate them for conversion to sniper at H&H. Guessing the rifle is a "Less Telescope" rifle that someone completed with a scope and bracket. I have both Savage Mk.1 and Mk.1* rifles marked S51 on the butts as converted at H&H and neither was ever completed with the addition of the telescope and bracket. Hence, no finish "T" stamped on the left side of the body.
2 of my Savage No4Ts appear to retain the original butt stocks - I guess I will have to pull them to see what I find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
If there are numbers of unfinished Savage No.4(T)s with the S51, but no T or TR, AND no scope numbers on original buttstocks, then I would see that as pretty clear evidence that it was production at H&H that was interrupted by an interruption in bracket supply, or did production at H&H and RSAF Enfield overlap by a period of months?
IIRC Peter's research correctly, the scope numbers were marked on the butts from the beginning of the trials conversions at Enfield, so the lack of such numbers on an original S51 buttstock, must mean an unfinished conversion(?)
Could be Rob. I'd guess that the unfinished Savage rifles weren't necessarily early or even mid-war production. I've seen a few unfinished Mk.1* conversions that sported British walnut forends and British five groove barrels dated '45. From what I've learned, those parts were changed at H&H during conversion because some forends were unsatisfactory and the rifles had 2 groove barrels from the factory which were not to sniper conversion spec. They were never completed either and didn't sport the selection TR or finish T stamps. To throw a wrench into the mix, I'm finishing up a restoration for a client in Texas that was a sporterized 1942 Savage No.4Mk.1T that was issued and used. Unfortunately, it had no original wood that I know of. At least he didn't send it except for the original cheek piece. He sent all nos Savage wood for the restoration. It has the small late or post war F.T.R. stamped under the serial number on the left side of the butt socket and a TR which was added by an Armourer at the RSAF most likely during FTR. It also has a five groove '45 date barrel which I'd guess is original as converted at H&H because I've seen them before as I mentioned. I reckon it could be its second barrel if it had a six-groove barrel from the factory. I don't think too many of the early Savage six groove barrels were used into 1942 production but could be wrong since it is a Mk.1 and not a Mk.1*. It's sn. 0C36xx. My original Savage No.4Mk.1T is 0C160, sports its original Savage six groove barrel and saw little or no use in service.
I got the stock off and it's original! Got a real Savage setup by H&H....
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IMG8881-1.jpg
Nice. Really pleased for you.:thup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopdevil
You took the butt off without removing the forend.
Wasn't that required only on the No.1 Rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
Yes, ok on a No4. You can do it on a No1 as well so long as it is fitted with one of the late Indian forends with the No4 style keeper plate & No4 pattern stock bolt. But otherwise a definite no no!
So, to summarize I have a correct Savage No4 Mk1 (early) that was semi converted by H&H? Meaning, a Scope and bracket was not paired. We know this because it would be stamped "T" on the receiver if fully converted? "TR" was never stamped on the Savage Rifles?
Your rifle was "fully converted". The part that included Jigs was the attachment of the base pads to the receiver.Quote:
Originally Posted by hopdevil
"T" on the receiver is not universal. On a 1941/1942 Savage No4T the presence or lack of a "T" on the receiver is meaningless.
The "proper" markings really only show up in 1944-1946 production. Too many rifles have been "f'd" with by people trying to "correct" markings.
On your rifle the lack of a scope serial number on the butt stock is the key.
I take it your rifle is a Savage 6 groove barrel?
Yes it was, but as the bolt is the same thread / size for the No1 and the No4, and folks have a habit of stripping down their rifles and replacing parts, I always work on the 'worse case' scenario that the bolt may have been replaced by a No1 bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
There was an instruction given to Armourers to cut off the square end of the No1 bolts, but as usual (from the numbers of non cut bolts) it seems the message didn't get received by all stations.
I always suggest, that irrespective of rifle No, it is 'safer' to disassemble the rifle forend first.
Well, I expect that if a No.1 buttstock bolt was used on a No4 the nose would press into the cross-strap of the forend enough to deform it and certainly enough to push the forend against the draws making it well nigh impossible to get off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
So removing the butt first would seem prudent to me. There is no notch in the cross-strap of the No.4 forend after all.
Occasionally one sees No.4 cross-straps were the bolt has managed to at least mark the cross-strap, though I'm guessing the threads were at least designed to be short enough to prevent that when using the bolt made for the No.4?
If you're going to use a No.4 stock bolt on an SMLE, you need to make sure it has the flat washer and spring washer too. The damaged tie straps I've seen were usually lacking one or the other.
Indeed. Worth tightening on the butt before attempting to fit the forend so that the protrusion if any of the end of the bolt past the front face of the butt socket can be seen and addressed as required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick