1886 Mannlicher Bolt Extraction Issue

Good Morning,

Mixed day at the range yesterday.

Following two outings with my '86 that saw me breaking two bolt handles (pinned/brazed) on my '86, I had had some initial luck yesterday with my third handle (not pinned/brazed) for the first 10 rounds. Then history repeated itself. While trying to extract a spent round, the bolt required massive persuasion and my hand is a bit black and blue today. This was the third time and again is intermittent. The rifle also does this without loading rounds.

This issue occurs with an original extractor and with a new replacement extractor. When not binding, the '86 truly is a Ruck-Zuck and very accurate. This one has a great bore and that's why I made the purchase. The model '86 has familial connections and I would love to get it running smooth. When it does cycle well, the smoke cloud is amazing.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Randy

Original extractor on the left/bottom and new replacement on the right/top:

Attachment 134900

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rescuerandy2

The rifle also does this without loading rounds.

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if it's jamming up with an empty chamber, might this be a locking block issue?

After watching several videos on how the '86 cycles, I believe there might also be an issue with the receiver where the block drops and lifts from. Will take a better look tomorrow and make sure the surfaces are clean and free of corrosion. Thanks, Randy

Kudos to Low and Slow. I got my borescope out and saw that there was heavy corrosion in the receiver where the Dropping Block sits while the bolt is cocked. looks like the corrosion created tremendous friction as I tried to cycle the bolt and extract the spent case. Will make some dummy rounds tomorrow to see if my cases were also part of the problem. Thanks, Randy

Good Evening All,

Well, the cases chambered flawlessly but all were a nightmare to get out. The bolt handle moved back within the bolt sleeve and that's were it stopped. From that point, I had to stand the rifle on the workbench and give the bolt handle a good thumping to extract each case. I measured each case and all dimensions were within tolerance. The brass had come from Buffalo Arms (Starline 50-100). Your suggestions welcomed Thanks, Randy

And now it functions fine with an empty chamber? If so, how about with a little pressure on the bolt face with a cleaning rod down the bore? I am suspicious of slop in locking block parts interface.

It sounds like that gun should be taken out of service. The 1886 design relies on that single locking point in the receiver. That point would have been machined smooth, possibly ground or polished to a high grade of finish as that is what both locks the action and has a lot to do with unlocking it. Any burrs or poor machining would have detrimental effects, just as having corrosion in that surface is for you. Odds are the rifle doesn't have proper headspace anymore as that locking surface and the locking wedge would be the determining factor in that.

I am confused by what you mean gone through three different bolt handles. Are you just switching the rear bodies out and keeping the same locking block? Or are you switching the whole bolts, in which case they would need to be fitted to the rifle. Even just switching out the rear component may require fitting to ensure the pieces mate properly, not to mention even the original locking block has a good chance of being out of spec now.

I am not a gunsmith, but I am a machinist/fitter. What your describing has me a bit concerned as it maybe beyond repair at this point in time.

Good Morning,

I have just changed out the handles leaving the bolt sleeve and components as is. The first two handles broke at what appeared to be welds and pins. The third replacement handle, with original components, worked smoothly without cases. In fact, I have owned several of the these rifles over the years and this one cycled the best.

My brass was purchased from Buffalo Arms and full-length sized in CH4D dies.

Randy

My concern would be the locking area and how the locking wedge is interacting with it. As a starting point I would use prussian blue to verify what is actually engaging/getting contact on the locking surfaces. I would also want to verify the headspace of the rifle as well. It is hard to say how bad the condition of the locking surface is. Based off your description of heavy corrosion, that isn't a good thing and likely could be enough to declare the rifle unserviceable for usage. Can't add material there, and polishing/cleaning up the surface would lead to a bunch of other problems such as requiring a new locking lug made and fitted not to mention it might not even work depending on how much material had to be removed to correct it.

It isn't a matter of functioning with or without cases, its a matter of the rifle maybe unsafe to shoot at this point. It is a 1886 design which isn't necessarily known for their safety features and only one locking point, proceed with caution.

Indeed. I'm no gunsmith either, but have done some mechanical trouble shooting. My line of questioning was intended to separate a simple extraction issue from a locking problem. An extraction issue is annoying. A locking issue can maim or kill you.

Back to Basics seems to be the answer. I should have addressed the cases first but counted on CH4D dies be almost perfect. In this case, I believe they are not full-length sizing correctly.

I happen to have some surplus 11mm Mannlicher rounds and they chambered and extracted perfectly. I tried this with ten rounds and spent about 10 minutes just chambering and extracting. Not one issue.

Out comes the micrometer and the Buffalo Arms cases (50-100 Starline) are very close to specs with the neck being 8-10 one-thousands too wide. With me zealously chambering the rounds, with apparent no issue, there is to much friction from the oversized necks for smooth extraction.

Tomorrow, I am going to take one of the old rounds and run it through the dies to see if the CH4D dies are at fault. Feeling like there is an issue between the dies, cases, and chamber. Will do a chamber cast tomorrow too.

Again, thanks to all for your help and stay tuned.

Randy

What do the cases look like after being fired. Expanding cases into a corroded chamber are the first thing I thought of when you can't get them out.

Is this an RTI import? A lot of them are in rough shape. I have a couple of the 1888 upgrades, a 90 and a 95 but haven't fired either of them yet. Both seem to work smoothly and the interiors were in decent shape although the bore on the one is rough.

My '86 is not an RTI and the chamber looks fine. With the CH4D dies bringing the necks in at 8-10 one thousands over the OEM cartridges, I am going to ask my gunsmith to open up the neck. Would rather find a die to deal with this but this may be just a problem with my rifle.

I made some dummy rounds from the OEM cartridges and Ruck-Zuck was amazing. Let's see if we can get this going and bring the smoke cloud back. Randy


Randy

Before altering the rifle to fit the brass I would contact CH and explain the situation. It's possible that the die itself is out of spec and may have to be returned for some tweaking or replacement. They are an excellent company and stand behind their work for lifetime I believe.

CH4D is a great company and without them I could never have shot so many BPCRs over the years. When I compare my cases following full-length sizing, they were a perfect match for the specs I pull from Cartridges of the World. So, I believe the dies are correct.

My question is why is the old cartridge's neck narrower than specs and working great for for this rifle? Are the dimensions of the chamber correct and I am missing something?

At this point, I am looking at having the neck opened and staying with the dies I have now.

Thanks,
Randy