.22LR No.4(T) on auction in Canada Apr 2024

LEE ENFIELD | Model: NO4 MK1T | Caliber: .22 LR - Switzer's Auction & Appraisal Service


One of Peter Laidler's articles mentions an unknown variant No.4(T) in .22LR. Here's another one on auction in Canada. My question is, was someone trying to make a Lee Enfield 'gallery' rifle for off season training?

LEE ENFIELD | Model: NO4 MK1T | Caliber: .22 LR - Switzer's Auction & Appraisal Service


Since the internet forgets things, here is the text:

Condition: 7/10

Make: LEE ENFIELD
Model: NO4 MK1T
Caliber: .22 LR

Bore(s): Excellent
Comes With: Magazine
Action: Bolt Action Rifle

Main Description: Manufactured by M47C BSA Shirley 1944, bolt numbered to match. This rifle has been converted to .22 LR with Canadian CNO7 barrel, foreend, bolt parts and magazine which has the proper follower. Receiver has the letter S stamped on the small flat on the right side, has the letter T with drooped ends, left side of butt socket stamped with TR near the bottom, top of wrist is unmarked along with the bottom. Blade front sight with ears and ramp, adjustable milled rear peep sight with battle sight removed, blued finish, includes telescope sighting No32 MK3 marked OS2039A CTS NO21816 with clear optics and intact reticle, leather scope covers, mount Numbered N31699. Four piece full military wood stocks, grooved rear handguard, pistol grip, wood cheek rest, smooth brass butt plate with trap. Two sling and one target swivel. Barrel does not have bayonet lugs.

Wear: Metal finish shows some scratches, handling marks and wear. Stocks show some marks, scratches and wear.

Barrel Length: 25.25"
Serial: E54258
Class: Canadian Non Restricted

That's an interesting one. It looks to be a perfectly genuine run of production BSA Shirley 1944 4T that has been converted to .22 LR. I do not believe that it is one of the 100 rifles that we believe BSA set up specifically in .22LR in 1944, as from conversations I had with PL many years ago I gather the bodies of these 100 rifles were not marked in the typical way, & they were serialled from 1 to 100 in their own s/n range.

As an aside, when Dave & I bought the large batch of partially stripped 4T's back in the late 90's there was a small number that had either shot out bores or bores with significant corrosion. So as not to end up deactivating them we sleeved them to .22LR, but unlike in this case we had commercial sleeves fitted into the existing barrels. For some years I had a BSA & a Maltby 4T in .22, & Dave had a couple too. We eventually succumbed & they were sold a few years ago via a certain renowned gunsmith in the Wiltshire area of England.

By coincidence I'm getting a few more rifles sleeved at present, although these are not 4T's, but No2 MkIV*'s that got smoothbored & mag restricted & which I'm getting re-sleeved to restore them back to original spec., one of which I then intend to hang on to! As I get older & more decrepit I am coming to increasingly appreciate the little .22 Enfield variants!


P.S. Should have made it clear I meant the rifle body is genuine BSA 44 4T. Clearly it has had a lot of replacement parts, not least the barrel & most of the woodwork. No doubt set up by an enterprising individual. Probably done in the days of relative plenty when one more or less 4T wasn't a big issue. I know I buXXered up a couple of 4T bodies & one or two original brackets on hair brained experiments back in the day, but we look on things from a slightly different perspective these days.......I'd give it house room if it came at the right price!

Fantasy piece! Receiver genuine BSA 1944 selected for No4T conversion then a donor for the conversion. The barrel is Canadian C No7 as is the bolt. All components mismatched and not a the real deal. Not aware of any Canadian conversions and certainly not Brit. Seen a number of 22 cal relined no4T's for plinking or target shooting. Will be interesting to see the hammer price. Ron (Canada)

From the collection of the late Harry Toye. I have no doubt that he could have accessed the C No. 7 parts. Keep in mind that No. 4T kits were C$79.95 in the late '60s. Making up a .22 would not have been a traumatic event years ago.
Interesting shooter as is. Install a .303 barrel and it becomes a representative 4T. Sell off the harvested .22 barrel for $500...

That's one thing I always had in mind when we sleeved some to .22..............rebarrel with another .303 barrel & Bob's your auntie! Ok, it won't satisy the purists who want 'as it left the factory', but it'll be a perfectly functional 4T.

Wow, I handled it in the 1980s as I used to visit Harry at his house in Sarnia on my trips to Western Ontario. I was 18 when I first met him. I spent many hours in his basement. My Grandfather, who lived in Corunna which is just down the road from Sarnia, hit it off with Harry too. I can tell you he was a real Armourer and it will be built correctly. It was a pleasure to know him. I was very fortunate to be introduced by my late Uncle in Chatham. Good times for sure.

Tell us some more about the man Brian. So many interesting characters pass on without being known outside their immediate circle.

I met Harry Toye in the early '60s when I was in my teens. Grew up in Sarnia, know Corunna. Did you know Sherm and Ken Ball who operated Corunna Hardware? Ken had gone to Colorado to take the gunsmithing program, and ran quite a gun counter in the hardware store. Sherm was ex-RCMP.
In my tickle trunk I have a new in the grease BSA No. 4 replacement barrel; just the thing for such a project...

I knew Harry as a polite gentleman, former soldier and Armourer. He was retired from the CF having served from WW2 onwards. He was very knowledgeable about all manner of weapons and what made them tick. The walls of his basement were covered with military long guns and it was like a museum to me. A fascinating guy. I saw my first RFI 2A/2A1 rifles there as well as Israeli K98k rifles in 7.62. He was a registered dealer and had a small and loyal clientele. My Grandfather was the senior machinist at the C&O/Chessie System shops in Sarnia and an avid trains, boats, cars, guns and gear guy so he enjoyed our trips over to Harry's house as well. I was in Corunna Hardware a few times with him and met Ken Ball. I never met Sherm that I can remember. My Grandfather knew them fairly well and lived not far away on Cameron Street.

Trying to remember - C&O ran the car ferry across the St. Clair River?

Yes Sir. When I was in my early teens in the 1970s, I got to ride across to Port Huron on the bridge with the crew and my Grandfather who arranged it with the Captain. Quite an experience. I also rode to Chatham and Blenheim in the cab of a GP7 pulling a freight train back and forth to Sarnia. We parked the train in Wallaceburg on the way back and had a Chinese dinner with the crew before returning to Sarnia. Exiting day, good times. When I was last up there in 2017, I stayed in Marysville, MI and took a ride on the river road north to Port Huron. The old ferry dock and yard were turned over to the city of Port Huron and it's a park. You can fish off the ferry dock.

Current Bid with 4 1/2 days to go, $2,600.00CAD

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

And in the same auction, a thoroughly sporterized T without the pads. A previous owner electropenciled his name, numbers and address all over this one. It was a thing years ago.

LEE ENFIELD LONG BRANCH | Model: NO4 MKI* T Sniper Sporter | Caliber: .303 BR - Switzer's Auction & Appraisal Service

1. No4T 22 bid has not even covered the scope and bracket - this will go for much more - 4 days to go.

2. The sportizer LB - is the serial number a Canadian No4 sniper????? Too bad it's electro pencil - hard to polish out. Also drilled and tapped on the receiver. If originally a LB T its a very difficult and costly restoration.

Ron (Canada)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf_Eh

And in the same auction, a thoroughly sporterized T without the pads. A previous owner electropenciled his name, numbers and address all over this one. It was a thing years ago.

LEE ENFIELD LONG BRANCH | Model: NO4 MKI* T Sniper Sporter | Caliber: .303 BR - Switzer's Auction & Appraisal Service

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Never fitted with pads by the look of it. Was this around the time of a change over to the SAL "Griffin & Howe" mount?

I met Harry in the late 60's, he was a supply teacher at my high school and coached the rifle team of which I was a member for 5 years. He was a true gentleman and I spent hours in his basement admiring his collection.The rifle team made many visits to the military ranges at Camp Ipperwash, Cedar Springs and Winona Ontario because of his military connections. He would always bring antique rifles along, Snider's, Brown Bess or Martini Henry's to shoot after competitions. After I finished high schools we always met up at local gun shows, .his son Bruce was a collector as well. Harry always walked bolt upright, shoulders back, he was pure military through and through and greatly missed

Rather curious that the forend tie plate on that uncompleted 71L rifle has been welded. Presumably the brass crosspin replaced with steel? The routing out of the recess looks a bit different from normal as well.

I wonder if this was one of those rifles put together from left over odds and ends as apparently happened at Long Branch - SAL. A number of rifles of various configurations have turned up assembled from various parts. Could this be an experimental tie-plate system? Decades ago I spoke to a former RCN engineering office who was a technical inspector in some capacity for the federal government in the 1950s and 60s, who mentioned having a rifle made up there as a retirement present for a colleague, as this was a largely unprompted recollection and he mentioned the rifle "even having the tag on it" etc. I thought it a pretty reliable statement.

There is another uncompleted Long Branch rifle for sale online at the moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Rather curious that the forend tie plate on that uncompleted 71L rifle has been welded. Presumably the brass crosspin replaced with steel? The routing out of the recess looks a bit different from normal as well.

I wonder if this was one of those rifles put together from left over odds and ends as apparently happened at Long Branch - SAL. A number of rifles of various configurations have turned up assembled from various parts. Could this be an experimental tie-plate system? Decades ago I spoke to a former RCN engineering office who was a technical inspector in some capacity for the federal government in the 1950s and 60s, who mentioned having a rifle made up there as a retirement present for a colleague, as this was a largely unprompted recollection and he mentioned the rifle "even having the tag on it" etc. I thought it a pretty reliable statement.

There is another uncompleted Long Branch rifle for sale online at the moment.

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This 71L was stripped by Parker Hale and D&T for their mounts.

I've seen one or two that were done by "Santa Fe" in the past.

One of my No4T rifles was a retirement gift, the wood sanded and poliurathaned, and all the metal was spray painted silver.

And for the sake of record keeping, the .22LR conversion CNo.7/No.4(T) sold for $5,000.00CAD (plus $750.00 buyer's premium + applicable fees & taxes & shipping.

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf_Eh

Current Bid with 4 1/2 days to go, $2,600.00CAD

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

And in the same auction, a thoroughly sporterized T without the pads. A previous owner electropenciled his name, numbers and address all over this one. It was a thing years ago.

LEE ENFIELD LONG BRANCH | Model: NO4 MKI* T Sniper Sporter | Caliber: .303 BR - Switzer's Auction & Appraisal Service

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Sold for $1800 plus premium, taxes and shipping. May God guide the hand of the buyer; ther is a lot of work ahead.

A genuine T with No.15 chest and No.8 Mk II boot went for $6200, but the engraving on the scope was not perfect and the wood had several chips.

And for the sake of record keeping, the buyer of the 22 sniper was none other than.......................................
me. It will be staying as is. Should be a fun little plinker arouund the yard. Gophers look out. Theres a sniper out there waiting for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rgg_7

2. The sportizer LB - is the serial number a Canadian No4 sniper?????
Ron (Canada)

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If you check this old thread: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=55741
The serial number71L0442 fits perfectly within the listed 71L rifles which had the no32 scopes fitted.

Quote:

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1. 71L0276 ?
2. 71L0279 DATED 1944 Scope Missing, Seaspriter on Milsurps Robert Porter Lynch, Naples, FL USAicon
3. 71L0287 C No. 32 MK. IA 368C UNKNOWN
4. 71L0297 17977 17977
5. 71L0303 351C Cold Zero ? Alberta Canadaicon
6. 71L0322 C No. 32 Mk. IA 301C B & B Arsenal
7. 71L0332 No. 32 MK. IA 3840 ?
8. 71L0350 C No. 32 405C paul87buck USA?
9. 71L0374 UK
10. 71L0403 C No. 32 Mk. II 471C UNKNOWN Italyicon?
11. 71L0414 C No. 32 MK. II UNKNOWN Canada?
12. 71L0435 C No. 32 Mk. I or IA or II 168C John ROBERTSON Canada
13. 71L0439 C No. 32 Mk. II 3854C 3854C UNKNOWN USA
14. 71L0555 No. 32 Mk. II 11189 11189 Colin Stevens Canada (Britishicon scope fitted in service) DATED 1944

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I don't see a welded rivet on the tie plate Rob. It just looks normal to me. Maybe the light in the photo makes it sort of look that way. Guessing the round impression around the head of the rivet on the plate is from the mandrel it's held on while the other side is staked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I don't see a welded rivet on the tie plate Rob. It just looks normal to me. Maybe the light in the photo makes it sort of look that way. Guessing the round impression around the head of the rivet on the plate is from the mandrel it's held on while the other side is staked.

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On taking another look Brian I think you're probably right: I was reading too much into the colour and the "ring" around the end of the rivet probably raised by too hard a die strike, which resembles a spot weld somewhat.