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New to me, in good condition overall. 2 groove war expediency barrel. Prvi 174 gr. FMJBT. Zounds! This rifle couldn't hit a barn from the inside with that boat-tailed ammo.
Anyone have a projectile they like?
To me locking at the rear of the bolt and screwing on the extractor head are about as dubious ideas as they come. This said I think this fired brass can be sized to the chamber and made useful if there is a projectile worth the effort.
Have you gauged the bore, throat wear, whats the crown like & the muzzle, is the trigger guard front screw tight with the action collar in place, how is the bedding of the draws and up lift at the muzzle lots of stuff can contribute more than just BT's failure.
My sniper T had about a 10-15 moa group at 100m why ! the draws were toast so had to have them repaired it now clover leafs at 100 well at least it did for my mate who shot it !:madsmile:
This, combined with using BT bullets could be one of the problems .....................................
Use of Cordite in Rifles
'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-
APPENDIX 15
USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION
1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.
2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.
3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.
4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.
5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.
6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-
(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.
(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.
(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.
Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.
(c) Light M.G.s.
Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.
(d) Rifles.
N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.
7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.
8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from British weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.
The BT has relatively little contact with the rifling and does not upset easily compared to the open bottomed MKVII round.
The barrel does not have a lot of rounds through it judging from the muzzle end. Good idea I think to make a poor man's throat gauge by pulling a bullet from this Prvi ammo and soldering a wire to the end of it, to see if there is substantial erosion.
Action screws were tight. Some barrel movement at foreend which I guess is normal?
Were I to guess it would be this barrel, which is 2 groove, cut back-asswards from how one would think it should be done. Can see how bullet would only haphazardly engage those grooves. If I find a bullet to load then memo to self to stay away from slower powders. A Swedish Mauser this is not.
I understand people find this sort of quirkiness has a certain appeal but boy this rifle has all the short cuts. Peep sights, no grip cuts on the cocking bit, no half cock. Would have been tough going to fight Jerry with these.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=16377
Reading this.
BTW this is a great site for these rifles. Even an ugly child needs love and these British rifles find it here.
:)
If there are no grip slots in your cocking piece and no half cock you have a war time shortcut. These rifles were recalled and fitted with the correct cocking piece after the war. Be HAPPY you have a RARE rifle. The BT issue is very common. Find some open base projectiles that are of the Mk7 type or find a machinist who can make a die and nib that opens Mk8 BT projectiles up to Mk7 specs .
Unfortunately, the rarest thing in the world is a flat-based .311" bullet with a high B.C. (ballistic coefficient). Rarer still is if it has an open base. I've spent the last decade experimenting with just about every bullet known to Man except Woodleigh. Fortunately, there is hope! I found two bullets that gave superb accuracy in more than one of my rifles: the Hornady 150 gr. SST and the LeHigh 150 gr. target copper solid. The Hornady SST is a flat based spire point bullet that netted 1 MOA in my Long Branch and my Fulton regulated No.1 MkIII. The LeHigh copper solid is very long for a 150 gr, bullet due to its not having a lead core so sufficient length of the bullet engages the rifling to impart sufficient spin even with it being a boat-tail bullet. Unfortunately the supply of the Hornady SST bullet appears to be drying up but LeHigh still makes their copper solid. Of course, the reliable old Sierra 174 gr. SMK is still available and gives good accuracy throughout the range of Lee Enfield, Ross, P14, Arisaka and Argentine Mausers that I own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
The collector in me agrees with you 100%. The engineer in me who has had to deal with balky British designs in his work life likes to throw rocks.
There appear to be flat base 150 gr projectiles available new. The pickings for HXP are pretty slim.
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Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper740
---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 AM ----------
No postwar proofs, export or import marks either. Lightly used. Don't plan to shoot it much but can afford to see what it can do. Was definitely shot before I got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
Came along for the ride with a No. 4 Mk. 1 (T) in its box with matching bits. May or may not put rounds through that rifle, need to do some learning first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by togor
You are wasting your time looking at the muzzle - it is the 1st 3" of the barrel where all 'the action' takes place - read the first paragraphs that I quoted in Post #3. A rifle that has fired cordite will be worn at the chamber end and due to the way that Nitrocelulose works the bullet will not have suffcient 'kick up the bum' to upset into the rifling.
What makes it 10x worse is the fact you have the war-time expedient 2 groove barrel.
The only way you will get any sort of accuracy is either to use the correct MKVII (not MKVIIZ) ammunition, or home-load a full-power, open ended, parallel sided 174g bullet
If you're an engineer, I'd think you might want to buy the gauges from APEX or BRP to check your rifles properly.
Here are the gauging standards:
.310 plug shouldn't enter the chamber more than .25"
.307 plug shouldn't enter the muzzle more than .25"
.301 run must run through the bore.
It doesn't have to look worn out to have throat wear from hot burning cordite. It doesn't take a lot of rounds to get the wear pattern in the throat. You need good Mk.7z ball ammo with the 174 grain flat base bullet. PPU, S&B and most other new ball ammo is loaded to Mk.8z specs with the 174 grain boat tail. The Mk.8z was designed for the Vickers MMG, not rifles. I've had good results using the .311 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter if you're going to roll your own.
You're right. It ain't a Swedish Mauser. It's a battle rifle that has served worldwide for over 100 years in many guises. They will shoot 2-3" without effort at 100 yards when serviced and fitted together properly. There's nothing quirky about the Lee Enfield. It is what it is.
Yes, will check the throat on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I read the 5 groove barrels are more forgiving.
There's nothing wrong with a two-groove barrel as long as it's in spec. Much like the Springfield 1903A3 and other rifles that used them, if the two groove barrel didn't perform to the same standard, they'd have never been adopted.
I did not know that Maltbys used the 2-twist barrel. I thought that was reserved for Long Branches and Savages.
On the subject of ammo, I have gotten good results using PPU 174 grain FMJ. The 150 grain stuff sometimes has feeding issues.
Both ROF Maltby and ROF Fazakerley used two groove barrels during wartime production.
You would think!Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuraleanus
On this day two Garands were holding the black with HXP on a SR-1, then the No 4 comes out and it wants to shoot a 15" circle. Gotta figure it out. Sometimes that is fun, sometimes not.
If nothing else a specimen from that period right after the main peril had passed, while busy replacing as quickly as possible the many rifles left for Uncle Adolph.
According to PL the Savage rifles that were sent for No4T conversion were either rejected or had their barrels replaced as the two-groove was not acceptable for conversion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
That is true, but as is often the case what happened in practice wasn't always what the rules dictated! I have owned several Savage Mk1* T's that bore 2 groove tubes, & still do have one. They all had been scoped up as well, so I wonder if they were set up in the dark early days & just slipped through the net, either by accident or because we just needed functional rifles so badly. (As Brian intimates, a good 2 groove barrel will shoot as well as a 5 groover). The scope serials were all lowish suggesting they were converted early, rather than having, say, Mk3 scopes fitted later on.
Alan, You're talking sniper rifle conversions not service rifles. The No.4T sniper rifle required five groove barrels as that was the standard set for conversion. As Roger says, some two groove barrels slipped through which would be a relaxation of standards. Solid foresight blocks also slipped through as a relaxation of standards. You guys with L42 rifles need to look mat the left hand locking lugs on the bolts where you will find it's been surface ground flat on the bottom a few thou to make up for worn bodies. That was also a relaxation of standards. The explanation for rifles made in the 40's, (mostly 1944), is that there was a war on. The biggest problem I've encountered with both sniper and service Savage rifles, (H&H obviously did too), is bound barrels. Stocking up the forends correctly was imperative. Guessing some of the original birch was not up to snuff or the folks assembling the rifles needed more practice. I've had several serial number matching Savage No.4T rifles over the years with British walnut replacement forends.
As far as togor's rifle, if it's in the condition he states and the barrel is in spec, correct ammo, a good servicing and tune up will probably cure his accuracy problem. Ask me how I know!
So....
Pulled a Prvi 174 BTFMJ bullet. Soldered a AWG12 length of wire to the base.
Marked the insulation using rim as base reference mark (taken from a live round).
Added additional ticks every 0.200" on the insulation.
On this Maltby the projectile engages the rifling at about 0.170" beyond case.
My other No 4. is a M47C Mk 1 (T). For reference it engages at about 0.220" beyond reference.
Do these readings represent cordite-torched throats for such rifles?
Some Garand barrels came with 0.200" worth of room brand new.
I'm guessing this Maltby does not have a torched throat and just needs the right bullet and load for this screwy rifling.
Plus checking how the forend sits against the recoil lug.
Seems like it's in spec. Do yourself a favor and read Peter Laidler's articles on forend fitting a few times before you dive in. It's in his list of articles on this site. Never pry down on the front of the forend if it's tight. Tap it straight down gently at the rear using a piece of soft pine on the ledges under the rear sight. There is no recoil lug on a No.4. You'll see where the sear lugs contact the draws in the forend. Prying down from the front will destroy them. Give the wood a good drink of raw linseed oil too while you're at it without letting it build up in the bearings.
Yes this site is great for these rifles. Lots to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Can you post fairly closeup photos of the left side of the receiver Togor, without the scope bracket fitted and with it fitted?
The buttstock bolt is tight, but not protruding through the front face of the butt socket? (Looking along the forend strap with a bright light will help.)
The trigger guard screws are tight?
The barrel can be pushed upwards slightly and to the left and right slightly at the muzzle end?
The bracket, scope and rifle are numbered to each other?
Not to insult your knowledge or intelligence at all by the way.
Suspect it is a standard No4, rather than a 4T.
The Maltby 42?Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
Haven't talked much about the M47C T yet. Not sure if that old soldier gets shot yet or not. Or if it does, might want to figure out a nice easy load for it.
Belay that; I had the impression you had a Maltby T you were having trouble with.
If you have HS gauges in .303 you could put layout blue on the bolt face and close the bolt slowly against the no-go gauge to see if the bolt face is square to the chamber.
The other obvious question is whether the bolt is original or a replacement and if the latter was it done properly in a FTR or just swapped in by some civilian owner.
Bolt SN matches. The fired brass looks concentric. More generous like a MG chamber than a US cal. 30 rifle chamber but I think with annealing and judicious resizing it could be reused.
I can try something like your test with an unfired case.
Use a Lee Neck collet die, only use a full length body die when chambering becomes very firm and then sparingly.
Haven't kitted up for reloading yet, so thanks for the recommendation. :beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
A properly sized cast bullet does miracles with oversized worn barrels.
Use the Hornady 150 gn .312 FBHP they are pretty good shot them for ages I found they fly pretty good up to 400m I used them in my 2 No.4's with 2 groove brls and my 1945 OA No 1 MkIII I seated them with @3/4's of the cannula showing and then medium crimp.
See pic of one of my rounds just check the fit in the mag allowing enough for functioning & recoil.
Thank you for the recommendation.