M91 “Calvary” Carbine for my son

Just got this model 1891 (made in 1918) carbine for my young 8year old son.
It cleaned up ok and the bore looks reasonably good.
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We just fired it three times from the porch. I shot twice to get a velocity reading and my son once. We stopped because it is SOOO LOUD!! I decided to be merciful to my neighbors. We will continue at the range at a later date.
We shot PPU 6.5 Carcano 139 FMJ factory loads. The velocity average I recorded with my two shots was 2176 fps from the 17.7” barrel.
Primers looked fine but cases did show some stretching at the top of the shoulder and about one third up from base.
Unfired cases had a headspace shoulder to base length ShL= 1.695”
Fired case ShL = 1.703”. That was a change of .008” ?
The diameter measured just behind the shoulder of the case was .430” unfired and .440” fired. A change of .010”.

All that being said, my 8 year old loved shooting it and was able to hold it up off hand and fire. He said the kick didn’t hurt at all. But what a fireball!!

This is how the cases looked fired next to unfired round.

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Can I get some opinions whether this carbine is still safe to shoot with the obvious chamber wear and roughness?

You need to get a good look inside that chamber. There may very well be a large band of corrosion in that area, that'd be my guess. There are many cheap borescopes available on amazon that connect to your cell phone, get one. It's especially helpful if you collect milsurps and will pay for itself in mistakes not purchased. At least it has for me. In the interim you can clean the chamber aggressively with a chamber brush looking for rust to come out and see if it helps any. Those $89 RTI Ethiopian Carcano imports were in very rough shape. My son in law purchased a couple so I've seen them firsthand.

Thanks. I do have a bore scope and will use it. During the initial bore cleaning there were no signs of rust. Lots of grease and crud, yes. I plan on polishing the bore with flitz. But, would you say it’s still safe to shoot? I tend to think it is. I’m hoping to get it to the range and paper but won’t hold out much hope for fabulous groups. Getting it on paper will be a bonus.

My son is asking me if it’s ok for him to practice shooting his new carbine by dry firing? Will dry firing these cause damage?

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Thanks. I do have a bore scope and will use it. During the initial bore cleaning there were no signs of rust. Lots of grease and crud, yes. I plan on polishing the bore with flitz. But, would you say it’s still safe to shoot? I tend to think it is. I’m hoping to get it to the range and paper but won’t hold out much hope for fabulous groups. Getting it on paper will be a bonus.

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Ok just to clarify I'm not speaking about the bore I'm referring to the chamber specifically. Yes there could very well be solidified 50+ year old cosmolene in there which may require heat or soaking to remove. However if it was indeed cosmolene I would think by the heat of the 3rd round it would have started to soften. What's in there is a little more serious I think.

Sorry for not giving you the answer you're looking for but based on my firearms experience I will not remotely analyze your carbine and tell you it's safe to fire. If I had it in my possession, was able to disassemble and scrutinize it, only in that circumstance would I dare to make such a determination. Any positive long distance evaluation is totally irresponsible on the part of whomever does it.

Ok. I understand. I will scope the chamber and do more cleaning and polishing.

Can you provide an answer to the question about dry firing.




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I also will do a chamber casting.

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Can you provide an answer to the question about dry firing.

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Dry firing has never damaged a military rifle.

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

My son is asking me if it’s ok for him to practice shooting his new carbine by dry firing? Will dry firing these cause damage?

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I never recommend dry firing for anything. I even uncock my Carbine, Garand and 10/22 without dry firing them. Many will disagree with me. I can recommend using those spent cases until the firing pin hammers down the primers to the point it doesn't touch them anymore.

Do you reload? If so remove the primer from a spent round insert a properly sized piece of urethane in the primer pocket, put in a bullet to cartridge spec length and crimp ridiculously tight. Then drill some holes through it so that it can't be confused with a live round and you have yourself a dummy round safe for endless dry fire practice.

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

I even uncock my 10/22 without dry firing

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I don't dry fire .22 either. Remember all the dry firing practice you did in the military?

I never served Jim and I'm not about to contradict those that have. However as a retired machinist/mechanic and experienced amateur gunsmith I have seen the results of abuse to all manner of mechanical devices including firearms.

I realize dry fire is standard practice in the military but think about how many of the milsurps that you've owned where you say in your mind "I wish they never did that to this piece" no matter what the damage was. When dealing with an approximately 85 year old Italian wartime built milsurp that has come out of Ethiopia of all forsaken places, I would only advise extreme caution in all aspects of handling and use. I will always advise against what I deem as abuse to any firearm. Yes there are some that you have no choice such as certain Shotguns but in those cases I believe they were designed for it to happen regularly.

We went to range finally and despite some sticky extraction the rifle worked fine. It beat my shoulder black and blue. Proud of my 8 year old for powering through all five of his shots. Now we have a full box of PRVI cases to load. Really hit high at 50 yards.
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Hello K, that rifle has a very weird way to aim it correctly.
With the front sight folded toward the front, and using the fixed rear sight, you have a zero at 300 meters, but...
And here comes the weird thing. You must align the upper flat sides of the rear sight at the centre of the target, while the front sight must be aligned at the very lowest point of the v-notch.
At 50 meters you'll still be high, I guess, but not that high.

Take one of the fired cases and section it so that you can see whether or not there is any sign of incipient separation.
A rough chamber can cause extraction issues. If extraction is normal, don't worry about it. No point in excessive scrubbing or polishing if unnecessary. Same thing with the bore - clean it with a good fouling remover, but no need to polish it for the sake of appearance. The bore may never have been cleaned with a good metal removing solvent.

I knew burying the front sight in the Vnotch was a method, but I would have thought you put the front sight on the center of target. The top of the rear sight would just be higher up. This would “lean” the bore down for a lower bullet strike. We will give it a try once I load up some rounds. I have the 19 PRVI (I stuck a case in the Lee set. The Lee #2 shell holder is a definite no go) so I got the hornady dies and shell holder. I also got 50 6.5 Mannlicher Schonauer cases which size down just fine.
Also have 50 Norma cases on the way. I have 50 each of the PRVI .268” FMJ’s and SP’s. I’m hoping the bore still is good enough for a decent group. I’d love my joy to take a deer this coming season with it. We shoot about 40 - 50 yards where we hunt.

Gey yourself some good current reloading data for the round and see how much you can download it. A lighter bullet at less velocity can help reduce recoil. Start with the lowest power lightest bullet loads in your data and check for accuracy.
You can fiddle with the load from there. Obviously you'll want full power and a heavier bullet for hunting but you have a few months yet before you have to use those again.

For myself I would want to have that chamber issue solved before I took that carbine into the field. As a point of information there are no drill scope mounts available for that model receiver. Considering how notoriously bad those sights are it may be something to consider for use as a hunting rifle. You can try thecountryshed.com they sell many milsurp no drill mounts. Many are the scout scope type.

You can decide if you want to reload with .264 bullets and stay on the safe side (if the bore is a tad dark but the rifling strong, also the accuracy might be more than ok. I shot quite a few Norma rounds in my Carcano, and they are loaded with .264 bullets.
Or you can use the .268 bullets. But the gain twist barrel causes some headaches sometimes. A wrong powder could cause the pressure to go up. Look for good reloading data if you can.
For what matters, I use 37,0 grs of W760 and a MLR primer and the results are great. Just too bad that powder is unobtanium here...
I don't know if you have it there, but there is another powder used by lots of Carcano shooters, the Tubal 5000. I don't have the reloading data in my head, but I have a reloading manual with them in. If you want, just let me know here or per PM.

Enjoy the little Italian rascal!

I'm sorry, I fought it as long as I could but the anal side of me won out. Cavalry.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

I'm sorry, I fought it as long as I could but the anal side of me won out. Cavalry.

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Sadly, I didn't even notice until you posted that.

Neither did I...
Sorry for your "anal" side coming out so blatantly and publicly:lol:

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

I'm sorry, I fought it as long as I could but the anal side of me won out. Cavalry.

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LOL!! Yes you are right!! I didn’t realize it either. I will try and make the change so your anal side can unclench. LOL!! Thanks.




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Originally Posted by Ovidio

You can decide if you want to reload with .264 bullets and stay on the safe side (if the bore is a tad dark but the rifling strong, also the accuracy might be more than ok. I shot quite a few Norma rounds in my Carcano, and they are loaded with .264 bullets.
Or you can use the .268 bullets. But the gain twist barrel causes some headaches sometimes. A wrong powder could cause the pressure to go up. Look for good reloading data if you can.
For what matters, I use 37,0 grs of W760 and a MLR primer and the results are great. Just too bad that powder is unobtanium here...
I don't know if you have it there, but there is another powder used by lots of Carcano shooters, the Tubal 5000. I don't have the reloading data in my head, but I have a reloading manual with them in. If you want, just let me know here or per PM.

Enjoy the little Italian rascal!

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Thanks. Yes I have various powders to use. Many are specifically for older milsurps rounds.
Are you using the magnum LR primers mainly for use with the W760?
I have book data in the Hornady manual to go by and I believe they used a carbine to developed the loads. Powders listed should be fine. I have lots of .264 bullets to try plus the two bags of PRVI .268’s. I hope to do a chamber cast soon to get good measurements. I expect a worn throat.

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Are you using the magnum LR primers mainly for use with the W760?

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I use the magnum primers because they are suggested by many sources (not last by Dave Emary) and I found that with that load my old 91 long rifle shoots really well.
No sign of overpressure on the primers nor on the brass, no "wind" in the face from the pressure release gap, a nice, strong bang with good recoil, like a military round should deliver.
Everything as I'd expect it and also accurate.
I made some extreme tests with the W760, going loooooow with the load and using normal LR primers. Every now and then I got a whiff in the face, but I have the privilege of having a rifle that's been in our hands since 1932, when Grandpa won it in a national contest. And it was brand new. So, no risk of tampering, bad maintenance or other strange things.
It only shot military rounds until I happened to "intercept" it.

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Originally Posted by Ovidio

I use the magnum primers because they are suggested by many sources (not last by Dave Emary) and I found that with that load my old 91 long rifle shoots really well.
No sign of overpressure on the primers nor on the brass, no "wind" in the face from the pressure release gap, a nice, strong bang with good recoil, like a military round should deliver.
Everything as I'd expect it and also accurate.
I made some extreme tests with the W760, going loooooow with the load and using normal LR primers. Every now and then I got a whiff in the face, but I have the privilege of having a rifle that's been in our hands since 1932, when Grandpa won it in a national contest. And it was brand new. So, no risk of tampering, bad maintenance or other strange things.
It only shot military rounds until I happened to "intercept" it.

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That’s awesome. Have you slugged the bore for an actual diameter? My understanding is they are all .268” although they vary some one side or the other of that diameter. But not .264”. Am I wrong?

I didn't slug the bore on this one, because there is no reason. It is 100% as issued, plus it was treated really well.
The diameter should be .268 between grooves, not lands. The military bullets have the same diameter, and weigh 162 grs. (about. I weighed a few and there are a couple grains tolerance, I have the feeling).
.264 can be found, but in that case, these are rebarreled rifles. There is a company here in Italy, which has rebarreled quite a few. There is right now a guy selling one of those .264 Carcanos (a 41) close to me, here in the North-East.
They have no particular markings, so these rifles can be dangerous, because if you shoot .268 through them, the pressure skyrockets.
I don't know of any such rifles having been exported, but I'm far from being an expert on this. But considering that those jobs were made the earliest in the mid- to late eighties, if not even in the nineties, I don't think there is much of a chance that any of those reached the shores of the USA.
The original Carcanos have a 4-groove barrel, with right-hand rifling. These others, if I'm not wrong, have a 6 groove barrel.
If you want a lot of info, try visit this site: www.il91.it. Everything in Italian, but with the translators you can now have a much easier access to the contents here.
In case of doubts, pop me a PM.

I just recieved the box of Norma Carcano brass. What experience are people having reloading these? I’ve been reading about issues with the Norma extractor grooves not working in various shell holders and presses.

I can't say anything bad about them. I use the shell holder no. 2 or 3, can't recall anymore (Lee).
They always worked fine.
I only do collet resizing! Not the whole brass.

By the way, you're leaving Sapper hanging from his a...l side:rofl:

Sorry Sapper. It just killed me when I read it...

The correct shell holder is RCBS # 9 , Norma cases are on the small side . PPU has bad quality control so they can vary . The PPU .268 bullets are closer to .267 and they do not have the problems caused by Hornady's bad .268 bullet design . So any normal powder for that type round will be fine with the PPU bullets . Carcano bore sizes did change over the years . The early rifles had grooves about .270 + , then about .268 , with late made M-41's having bores as small as .266 ish . The military bullet is right at .266 dia and was made to be a bore rider like the rest at that time . The main thing to look for is the total bore area - land and groove and the combination of both . That and gain twist or not will be a major factor on what bullet to use . That is what Emery did not understand and why he kept breaking rifles . I wrote an article a long time ago when the Hornady .268 first came out [after test firing about 400 in many different rifles , bore sizes and loads ] that told what was wrong with the bullet design and why it causes problems in some rifles .

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

Gey yourself some good current reloading data for the round and see how much you can download it. A lighter bullet at less velocity can help reduce recoil. Start with the lowest power lightest bullet loads in your data and check for accuracy.
You can fiddle with the load from there. Obviously you'll want full power and a heavier bullet for hunting but you have a few months yet before you have to use those again.

For myself I would want to have that chamber issue solved before I took that carbine into the field. As a point of information there are no drill scope mounts available for that model receiver. Considering how notoriously bad those sights are it may be something to consider for use as a hunting rifle. You can try thecountryshed.com they sell many milsurp no drill mounts. Many are the scout scope type.

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Thanks. I believe a scope would be longer than the rifle. LOL!! We are shooting from our back porch at a distance of about 45-50 yards. I think the iron’s will suffice. I appreciate the thought though.

Contessa, an Italian very high end producer of scope mounts, just released a new scope mount for all Carcanos. Great piece of engineering, but outrageously expensive. Slightly offset, it allows also big diameter optics.
But I totally agree that at your distance, irons are king.
Let us know when you try again, if the aiming as suggested helps. I also once took a short piece of welding wire (don't remember the thickness, but it was probably around 1 mm) and glued it to the front sight. That really helped!
But the fact that the front sigh is not protected means that you'll knock it off very quickly, just by putting the rifle in a bag or in the safe.
You just have to calculate how much higher you need to be to come down those 31 inches at 50 yards, and put the "extension" in place.

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Originally Posted by bob q

The correct shell holder is RCBS # 9 , Norma cases are on the small side . PPU has bad quality control so they can vary . The PPU .268 bullets are closer to .267 and they do not have the problems caused by Hornady's bad .268 bullet design . So any normal powder for that type round will be fine with the PPU bullets . Carcano bore sizes did change over the years . The early rifles had grooves about .270 + , then about .268 , with late made M-41's having bores as small as .266 ish . The military bullet is right at .266 dia and was made to be a bore rider like the rest at that time . The main thing to look for is the total bore area - land and groove and the combination of both . That and gain twist or not will be a major factor on what bullet to use . That is what Emery did not understand and why he kept breaking rifles . I wrote an article a long time ago when the Hornady .268 first came out [after test firing about 400 in many different rifles , bore sizes and loads ] that told what was wrong with the bullet design and why it causes problems in some rifles .

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Thanks. Now I know not to order the Hornady bullets.

If you are afraid of knocking a sight extension off the blade just make it taller with a weld . Then file the weld to the shape you want and the zero you need . The .267 Privi 123 rn bullet would do just fine on 50 yard deer . You could load it to the 123 grain 7.62x39 mm level , size and velocity would be the same . The rn bullet would hit hard at 50 yards .

I didn’t want to tamper a priceless (for me) rifle. But it is a good tip

I didn't want to alter the original front sight of my 91/41, so I just made a higher front sight and saved the original. Easier to do when the front sight is a separate part.

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Originally Posted by Ovidio

Contessa, an Italian very high end producer of scope mounts, just released a new scope mount for all Carcanos. Great piece of engineering, but outrageously expensive. Slightly offset, it allows also big diameter optics.
But I totally agree that at your distance, irons are king.
Let us know when you try again, if the aiming as suggested helps. I also once took a short piece of welding wire (don't remember the thickness, but it was probably around 1 mm) and glued it to the front sight. That really helped!
But the fact that the front sigh is not protected means that you'll knock it off very quickly, just by putting the rifle in a bag or in the safe.
You just have to calculate how much higher you need to be to come down those 31 inches at 50 yards, and put the "extension" in place.

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Glad to know there is at least AN option out there for a scope. But for this little carbine I can’t bring myself to it. Plus I am the sort who doesn’t want to mess up a correct rifle. Plus, I want my boy to know how to use those irons properly like I did, before using scopes. At my age scopes help a lot. But I used to be darned good with irons. Peeps especially.

What glue did you use for the front sight? I have been pondering what I can put on the front. Gluing is fine but want it to be removable. I have JB Weld but that be a bit much.

JB weld is also fine . It will come off with heat . I have done that to many rifles I wanted to shoot in matches , but not alter . Plus I have a whole drawer full of sights and blades if needed .

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Originally Posted by KneverKnew

Glad to know there is at least AN option out there for a scope. But for this little carbine I can’t bring myself to it. Plus I am the sort who doesn’t want to mess up a correct rifle. Plus, I want my boy to know how to use those irons properly like I did, before using scopes. At my age scopes help a lot. But I used to be darned good with irons. Peeps especially.

What glue did you use for the front sight? I have been pondering what I can put on the front. Gluing is fine but want it to be removable. I have JB Weld but that be a bit much.

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I used “Superattack”. Common so called super glue. Gets hard and can be removed easily from hard surfaces. No residues