Hello the camp! New Acquisition IBM

Its been a long while, and thought I'd check in with a question about an IBM I just put in 10 day Commiefornia DROS jail. It's largely correct with the exception of a Type II rear sight, and a gorgeous Winchester cartouched stock. Carbine is in excellent condition, as is the stock. Did IBM ever get Winchester stocks? I know its probably a replacement, but the question is why was it replaced if it was in as good of condition as te rest of the weapon.

The condition of both matches. With the type II rear sight and the rest of the metal correct, I'm thinking its an early DCM/NRA gun. We got it in from the estate of an elderly gentleman with other 40s/50s/60s guns.

Thanks in advance. I'll do pictures Wednesday when I go back to work at the shop. I was running on a deadline.

IBM should not have gotten Winchester stocks from their normal channels. They would be Rock-Ola, Jamestown Lounge, Lumb Woodworking, Sprague & Carlton, and Milton Bradley.

Thanks, I figured as much, but just had to ask. Its a very handsome weapon. Still has a Type 1B barrel band.

Another question. In the Reisch book, it shows IBM stocks have only the ordnance wheel on the right side, and three small letters or so in the sling well. Am I reading that correct. In my stash at the shop, I have a really nice carbine stock that I know has only the ordnance wheel. Not sure about the letters in the sling well, as its been a long time since I looked at it. When I go back to work Wednesday, I'll check it.

Yes, only the crossed cannon stamp on the right side of IBM stocks. Page down on the link below to the Manufacturer Marks section to see the expected sling well markings for IBM stocks
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine Stocks & Handguards

Thanks. I'll check it Wednesday.

I picked up the other stock about six months ago, when a large lot of estate stuff (ammo and accessories), including Carbine ammo (which I also snagged) came in. We do lots of firearms and accessories from estates at my shop I work at. Well, I did some detective work this weekend, and found out that stuff was actually from the same estate as the carbine recently came from! We did not get the guns initially, as the family was not ready to sell them until everyone had an opportunity for a pick. Makes me wonder if it is the correct stock for the IBM. The Winchester stock is near mint, and the guy may have put it in it because it looked nicer. If it is the correct stock, I'll have a minty Winchester stock to sell.

I have been carbine-less for about a year, as I sold my "white bag" rebuilt Inland last June to help fund a two week summer extravaganza trip with all the grand kids.* I figured I'd just pick up another that came into the shop and work it off (I work for store credit mostly).* Problem is, this is the first one to come in!

Does the Winchester stock show any Type 2-3 front band marks? Also what does the buttplate look like? Some of the later ones look so much like Inlands that I can't tell the difference. :dunno: - Bob

I'll check out both stocks tomorrow. Also, Im going to check the major parts (Won't have time to do a detail strip at work, that will have to come whenI take it home). I also need to figure out what type 2 rear sight it has. It has an ordnance wheel stamped on it.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I also need to figure out what type 2 rear sight it has. It has an ordnance wheel stamped on it.

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A SA Milled Rear Sight ?

The stock that I have that came from the same estate is a really nice type 3 IBM stock with a RRA rebuild stamp. Since the IBM has a post war Springfield Armory Type II rear sight, and an Inland bolt, it may have been put in the stock and sight and bolt change at Red River. Trigger guard and all components are IBM and seem correct, including safety and mag catch. An M2 ball round shows a good 1/4" in the muzzle, so Muzzle erosion should be about zero. I bore sighted it and its dead on where it should be (POI =1" above POA at 25 yards). It is a partial rebuild, but largely correct.

I did put the IBM stock back on the IBM, as it may be the stock put on it in the rebuild at Red River after the war. (certainly better than the Winchester stock). I am not going to "restore" it any further. If it has an incorrect stock, I want the one that reflects the partial rebuild. I do feel that because of the fact that it was not upgraded all the way with type III band and flip safety, it was probably an early NRA/DCM carbine. I have seen several of those that had type 1 bands and Type II or Type III rear sights. Its going to be my shooter and Home Defense Carbine, loaded with Hornady Critical Defense.

Here it is:
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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../dlDfQM4-1.jpg

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I realize my IBM should have a type 2 stock, and this IBM stock has a type 2/3 band shadow.* I think it is more correct or appropriate (with its RRA rebuild stamp) than the Winchester stock, though. The Winny has a type 1 band shadow, and is near mint 9except for some initials on the bottom of the grip). I'll probably sell the Winchester stock.

With no markings in the sling well not sure I would say that is an IBM stock. Don't think that is an IBM crossed cannon stamp either.

It is IBM. I did a hi-res comparison, point by point on the cannons especially. There is stamping in the sling well, but it is in a rough grained area. In the right light and angle, you see a faint B and some indentations. The only others with a ordnance wheel only are SP and QH, and its not close to those. Problem is, it's too late of an IBM for mine, and has a type II/III band shadow. I don't care, though because this is a shooter, and I have no desire to "restore it". Besides, it reminds me of the transitional Inland my dad fought with on Iwo Jima. It had no bayonet lug, but had the type II rear sight.

Later WRA stocks have only the CC too.

True, but they are larger than this one, and the ends of the cannon barrels stick out farther. I believe they use the same ordnance wheel as they did on the early ones, and those are larger.

Compare vs the current CC

Question for the hive....This IBM is a very dark, almost black, charcoal grey. Is it "dullite" or a dark parkerizing job. Is it IBM original finish, or was it done when rebuilt with RRA stamped stock, SA sight, and Inland bolt? Never had an IBM before.

Multiple folks who know more than me have told me that the RRA stamped stock is actually a late Winchester, not IBM, though several also have told me that it is common for IBMs in theat serial number range to have "IO" stamped flat bolts, so that may be original to the gun, meaning stock and rear sight are the two items replace at Red River arsenal.

Also that the 1963 NRA sold carbines often had upgraded rear sights , but retained the type 1 barrel band. My first carbine in 1982 was an 1963 NRA gun, and it was a Winchester with late sight and Type 1 barrel band.

What's the S/N range on the IBM? Does it have an undated barrel - any markings on the front sight? - Bob

IRM,
From you copy and paste matching post on the CMP Forum the only Expert that answered you was Roger M, who advised you about the types of rear sights found on later IBM's- "Late IBM carbines can have original type 2 or 3 rear sights if over 3.85 depending on IBM made or AO made". Afterward you listed the Serial number- 37304XX. So unless you've received some PM's I'm not sure who these experts were that said:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

several also have told me that it is common for IBMs in that serial number range to have "IO" stamped flat bolts

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I'd advise doing some more research on that. And while on the Bolt..... Is it Blued or Parked?
To add without the NRA or DCM paperwork it's a big leap to assume a Carbine came from either program no matter its configuration. And a bigger leap to assume any Depot or Arsenal stamped stock is original to the action in it.

All said it's a nice looking carbine and should meet your needs of a home defense gun nicely.

V/R

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Originally Posted by painter777

And a bigger leap to assume any Depot or Arsenal stamped stock is original to the action in it.

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+1 to this statement.

I realize it is at best a nice mix-master. I have had several PMs from others (WTMR for one) who have not posted. The owner had it since the 60s, and was a NRA life member, according to his family. That's the basis of the assumption that it is a 1963 NRA gun.

Serial number is 37304XXX, so I know it didn't leave the factory with SA type II sight. It was a rebuild at some point before the owner got it. Being a type 1A band and Type II sight is somewhat typical of the 1963 guns. My first in 1982 was a Winchester with type I band and Type II rear sight, and that was a NRA gun, as I got it from the guy who bought it from the NRA. I have seen several others like that through the years.

As to the IO bolt, which is blued, I realize there is no way to tell if it was done at the factory, or when rebuilt with the rear sight. Two people have contacted me privately, that IO bolts are common in low serial number IBMs. Their words, not mine.

I said it is possible, with its history, that the RRA stamped stock is the one it came from the NRA with. We will never know, but it is as likely as it is not. There were two stocks in the estate. The mint Winchester with initials, and the not as nice late Winchester with RRA. It is irrelevant, though, as it still a partial mixmaster, and I have no intension of "restoring" it.

I pick it up today, and will send some pictures tonight.

The sight bridge has the thin stake mark for the type 1 rear sight. The type 2 sight is round staked in place. The front sight is type 2 marked "SI-B". It appears original to the barrel with the circular stakes around the pin hole.

The type 1A band is marked "KV-B". The RRA stock has a type 2-3 band shadow but the other Winchester stock has a type 1 band shadow.

The barrel is dated 10-43 with ordnance bomb stamp and"IBM CORP" .
As I already stated and posted pics. The trigger group is correct including push button safety "EP-B" and hammer "WMB" and brazed housing marked "BE-B".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Gp56foO-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Kjf3QoI-1.jpg

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How it will be as my home defensive carbine, loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo (110 FTX HP @ 2050 fps+)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../HJqGnSA-1.jpg

Took the IBM to the range. I had bore sighted it at the shop at 25 yards, and it was dead on , breaking clay pigeons pigeons at 100 yards using a six o'clock hold. Was shooting some Korean and Vietnam era LC ball ammo. Function was 100%. I do love shooting M1 Carbines.

And she showed you that she likes to be taken out to the range haha. Just like the wife, you have to keep her happy too and at least make a date with her twice a month to take her to the range

The NRA also sold M-2 sans the evil parts. The Ban All The Fun Everytime rule that once a boolit hose, always a boolit hose. Perhaps Chevorn overules it?