My First No. 4 Mk. 1T - Maybe??

Took this home from a big LGS yesterday. My first Enfield sniper. I know a little about the Ts, but not even enough to be dangerous. What do I actually have here?

The seller claimed it is a BSA gun, all-matching, and was "checked" by Roger Payne a little while back--not taking Roger's name in vain...just reporting what the seller said. Since Roger's on the forum, he may recall (or not, if the seller was lying!).

Regardless of whether this one is real, I paid what I consider is a fair price, I like it, and am gonna keep it! Haven't tested accuracy because haven't yet checked headspace or done other pre-shooting checks.

Couldn't photograph it, but "ENGLAND" is stamped directly on top of the receiver under the scope turrets.

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Looks like a cracker!

Hello. Well, in all honesty I can't remember if I gave my two penn'orth on this one or not; I do get people asking me for opinions on a fairly regular basis & my memory is terrible, so me not recalling doesn't mean much!

You have a very nice early 1944 (first serial run with no letter prefix) BSA Shirley rifle. Everything looks ok to me. The Sykes wood is absolutely classic on unadulterated 1944 rifles. The bolt is original matching, & the zero bolt head is reassuring.
The original scope, 9992 would, speaking off the top of my head, have been a second contract Houghton Butcher Mk1, & as you no doubt know, your scope & bracket are mis-matched to the rifle. However, both are genuine & correct & the UIC Mk2/1 (unatltered Mk2 scope tube with Mk2 OS number but Mk3 drums fitted) is a scarce piece. It may have been converted in service from Mk2 to Mk2/1 but I have a hunch that it may have left the factory as a 2/1, with the designation not getting amended. The knurling on the UIC drums is quite distinctive, as is the font of the R&D scales, & I think your drums are UIC.
That's only my feeling though. Either way you have a lovely rifle, scope & bracket, & I would definitely give them house room.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Either way you have a lovely rifle, scope & bracket, & I would definitely give them house room.

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Wow! I was a bit on tenterhooks on this one since I'm none too edjumacated on the Ts. Looks like I won the lottery on this one.

Now to get the headspace, bore quality, etc., checked and take to to the range (my backyard).

Thanks much, Roger!

Looks a lovely example.....congratulations on a nice score :thup:

I don't remember seeing a Mk.2/1 marked as a Mk.2, in fact I don't recall ever seeing a U.I.C. Mk.2 before; anyone else?

What's up with the serial number on the scope tj214? Is it legible past the "21"?

The rifle as mentioned is a pristine original from what I can see and I had a 1944 M47C once with the same original blued finish. Whether that was just before the phosphate finish was introduced or that process was unavailable for a time I don't know.

I had 9546 at one time IIRC, but it would not have been a dated scope as HBM gave up dating their production in 1941, whereas Kodak Ltd. and William Watson continued to do so.

What I find interesting is that Mk.I scope No.9992 was probably made at least a year and possibly as much as two years before it was actually fitted to that rifle some time in 1944.

The scope has seen plenty of use and no post-war refurbishment which is slightly interesting in that it might suggest that some of these Mk.2/1 scopes saw service in WWII. Of course it could just as well be post-war service.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

I don't remember seeing a Mk.2/1 marked as a Mk.2, in fact I don't recall ever seeing a U.I.C. Mk.2 before; anyone else?

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They aren't common but over the years I've managed to acquire three.

Here are two of them. They currently look appalling, & as you may surmise they came out of India somewhat the worse for wear. They, like so many other rifles & scopes, are on my 'to do' restoration list!!

The third Mk2 is interesting as it is built on what was presumably a surplus Mk1 tube, with the Mk1 changed to Mk2, along with the OS466A being barred through & the OS1650A being added.
If there's any interest I'll try & get a photo.

Hey Surpmil

"The scope has seen plenty of use" is very polite terminology indeed!

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

What's up with the serial number on the scope tj214? Is it legible past the "21"?

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The serial is definitely "No 21." There are no numbers past the "1."

From examining under a strong magnifying glass I'm certain the abrasion (which is consistent with abrasions on many other parts of the scope) just aft of the "1" does not indicate additional digits were intentionally or accidentally obliterated. Also the abrasion is not deep enough to have obliterated any numbers engraved as deeply as the rest.

Sorry about the focus; this is as focused as my iPhone camera will allow.

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Another attempt to show the abrasion depth aft of the serial. I don't know how to get a better angle to show it.

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Congrats on your purchase, #21 is the highest two-digit s/n of a UIC Mk 2/1 with Mk 2 OS1650A tube-type markings with a second lot in the 230-300 s/n range. Attached is a picture of your scope from earlier times showing less corrosion.

Wow. I certainly got lucky with this purchase. Did you own this scope at an earlier time? Sure wish it still looked as good as it does in the pic you just posted--but even well-worn I'm glad to have it.

Thanks Roger: the numbers on yours fit the pattern?

Years ago I found the name of a gent online who worked during WWII for Unicam Instruments Cambridge (he still lived there IIRC) and phoned him him up out of the blue. He couldn't speak to No.32 sights in particular, but did say that the company had done a lot of small lot and specialized jobs "for the Ministry", so I suppose that fits with U.I.C. being given the left-overs and odd & ends to finish up or make serviceable, perhaps after the major manufacturers had retooled their lines for other work?

Tangential, but I'd also wonder why Houghton Butcher, Kodak and Watson were dropped from the production completely and replaced with Kershaw, Cooke, Troughton & Sims and Taylor, Hobson & Co.?

Could be their work was not thought to be up to snuff? The Mk.3 builders were I believe all firms with reputations for high quality output.

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Originally Posted by tj214

Wow. I certainly got lucky with this purchase. Did you own this scope at an earlier time? Sure wish it still looked as good as it does in the pic you just posted--but even well-worn I'm glad to have it.

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Would depend on what you paid. ;)

What you really want is Mk.I No.9992 and considering the condition of the rifle it is very likely that the scope is out there somewhere in a similar condition, perhaps even with the matching bracket.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

TWould depend on what you paid. ;)

What you really want is Mk.I No.9992 and considering the condition of the rifle it is very likely that the scope is out there somewhere in a similar condition, perhaps even with the matching bracket.

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3k including tax, etc.

Best way to search for the original scope? I'm new to this so can use all the advice I can get.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Thanks Roger: the numbers on yours fit the pattern?

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I don't know surpmil.............I may just wait & buy a copy of Lance's forthcoming book to find out!;)

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I don't know surpmil.............I may just wait & buy a copy of Lance's forthcoming book to find out!;)

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I expect you are in the credits? ;)

Another reason I may have to buy a copy.........to find out......:madsmile:

Per my question a couple days ago--since I've never done this before, does anybody have advice on how to locate Mk. 32 scope #9992 that was originally fitted to my (T)?

Milsurp suggested it might still exist, and it'd be super cool to rejoin the rifle and scope after ... x number of years.

I've tried the obvious, which means searching this and a couple other milsurps sites, as well as a standard DuckDuckGo search, for this scope and serial number, but no hits. I thought about posting my quest on this site's WTS/WTB/WTT and Angel's "Match Making" forums, but they seem to get near zero traffic, so didn't.

Help!?

You could try a pm to Seaforth72. Colin keeps close tabs on surviving scopes & rifles & may be able to assist. Over the years he has compiled a substantial database. No guarantees, but worth a try.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

You could try a pm to Seaforth72. Colin keeps close tabs on surviving scopes & rifles & may be able to assist. Over the years he has compiled a substantial database. No guarantees, but worth a try.

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Thanks again, Roger. Contact made and we're off to the races.

Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Years ago I found the name of a gent online who worked during WWII for Unicam Instruments Cambridge (he still lived there IIRC) and phoned him him up out of the blue.

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I'm perplexed about a couple of things as I learn more about what I acquired.

Surpmil's note seems to suggest the U.I.C. engraved on my Mk. 2/1 scope signifies Unicam Instruments Cambridge, but Peter Laidler's book Telescope Sighting No. 32 states on page 20:

"Vickers Instrument Company, whose telescopes are marked with the logo U.I.C., were invited to ..." [Note it's clearly a "U" and not "V" in Peter's book since he uses the U.I.C. identification in several places.]

Peter's chart of serial numbers ranges on page 32 lists "Vickers U.I. Co." as producing both Mk. 1 and Mk. 2/1 scopes.

Was Unicam a subsidiary of Vickers?

Back to page 20, again referring to the 2/1, Peter states:

"Those manufactured by Vickers with the serial numbers in the 0-1000 range carry the part number OS1400GA and are very rare and highly prized by collectors."

His serial numbers chart on page 32 lists:

"Manufacturer: Vickers U.I. Co.
From: 0 To: 1000
Mark: 2/1
Total: 1000
Remarks: Identified by figures OS 1400 GA"

My scope, as shown in the photos in my original post above, is marked:

TEL. STG. NO 32, Mk. 2.
U.I.C. O.S. 1650A.
No 21

Although my serial number (21) falls within the Vickers range (and none of the other manufacturers' ranges in Peter's chart), it has the 1650A nomenclature rather than the 1400 GA described in Peter's book.

Hence my confusion. It would seem I've got a Vickers manufactured Mk. 2/1 but the part number doesn't match what I would expect from the chart. Could it be I've got such an early tube the Mk. 2 part number was engraved but the later (?) part number was not added in place of the 1650A?

Am I missing something?

This is what I suggested a bit earlier in this thread. Not all UIC Mk2/1 scopes were correctly marked with the 2/1 Optical Stores number of OS 1400GA, some were obviously assembled on existing tubes already intended to be assembled as Mk2's, with the relevant OS number of 1650A. Lance may be able to enlighten us from his data base, but logic would suggest that the earlier production scopes would most likely have been assembled on Mk2 engraved tubes, this being corrected as production of scopes went along.

It wasn't just Mk2 to 2/1 scope assembly where this occurred. I have a Mk2 scope that has the Mk1 OS number barred through & the Mk2 OS number added.

IIRC Peter wrote the book just over thirty years ago. A lot of additional information has come to light in the intervening years, particularly since we have had the internet. Peter might want to chip in himself, but I think when he was preparing the book he mentioned that he believed UIC may have been a subsidiary of Vickers, called the United Instruments Company. I am not certain how sure he was of this, & I know surpmil suspects it could have been Unicam. I honestly don't know which explanation is correct........UIC scopes are generally & loosely referred to as 'Vickers No32's', at least by me. It keeps life easier........I'm a big fan of that!

FYI, Lance & Peter et al addressed my exact questions in a very old thread I missed (https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=80499). Recap from that thread:

• Only 545 Vickers (UIC) Mk. 2/1s built (not 1000) (Per Lance)
• "Early Vickers Mk 2/1 scopes bear the OS1650A Mk II markings but are set up as Mk 2/1’s." And, apparently, the only manufacturer of 2/1s. (Per Lance)
• "On the subject of UIC, indicating United Instruments, it was a joint group of small independent instrument companies that usually worked as small-time sub contractors for the big TTH's, CTS's etc etc around the Country. A bit like Houghton Butcher, that came together for the war but UIC was 'controlled/directed' by the giant Vickers company. The Vickers archivist told me recently that the reason UIC didn't succeed as did HBM, was was that it encompassed so many small firms that each thought that they were missing out a bit on their chunk of the work..." (Per Peter)

What an amazing education this site offers us!

Unicam or United I have no stake in either. ;) Could be just variations of the same name, in fact that is the most likely interpretation I suggest.

Clearly much remains in the Vickers archive, which IIRC has been passed on the Barrow Museum Service.

Just came across these photos of a U.I.C. Mk.2 incidentally.

Why not post your rifle's info in the thread: Angel's matchmaking service located in this forum? Do this under "Rifles looking for scopes". Post the serial number of the missing scope located on top of the stock wrist near the butt socket. You can also look under "Scopes looking for rifles" to see if anyone has already posted your scope. Good luck

Done. The last post on that thread was 32 months ago, so there's not a lot of action--but well worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

You're welcome. A long shot but you never know. Good hunting!

I intended to do this a couple of weeks ago but forgot - just in case there is any interest; UIC Mk2 scope assembled on unused Mk1 tube. Original Mk1 designation barred through & new designation added.

Note the coarse knurling on the R&D drums - typical of UIC.