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US miilitary personnel firing from helicopters onto Viet Cong targets.
Location: Vietnam
Date taken: October 1963
Photographer: Larry Burrows
Anyone who runs is a V.C.! Anyone who stands still... is a well-disciplined V.C.!
Full Metal Jacket- Get Some - YouTube
I hated that scene... typical Hollywood tactic to use one psycho to denigrate all our troops. The antiwar flower generation was the beginning of the rot of our great country. Look where it has taken us :(
Apparently (I believe it was this film) when they filmed that scene they forgot to let people on the ground know - some (all?) of the people on the ground are reacting to crazy people in a helicopter shooting at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Seijas
Full Metal Jacket was a typical anti-war film while not being too obvious.
It was also one of those typical Hollywierd dramas, an interpersonal drama with all these big, green noisy things in the background. The genre is typified by Titanic, a love story with this big, black boat thingy in the background.
Bob
Tiger Force - Wikipedia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Seijas
War crimes are a part of war and the depicted scene is mild compared to actual events - many of the vets I worked with have much more gruesome personal experiences. t Happened and it does reflect on the rest of the organization - to not speak to it or censor it out of the story just buries the truth
The Vietnam War Crimes You Never Heard Of — History News Network
Military records demonstrate that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are only the tip of a vast submerged history of atrocities in Vietnam. In fact, while most atrocities were likely never chronicled or reported, the archival record is still rife with incidents analogous to those profiled in the Blade articles, including the following atrocities chronicled in formerly classified Army documents:
A November 1966 incident in which an officer in the Army's Fourth Infantry Division, severed an ear from a Vietnamese corpse and affixed it to the radio antenna of a jeep as an ornament. The officer was given a non-judicial punishment and a letter of reprimand.
An August 1967 atrocity in which a 13-year-old Vietnamese child was raped by American MI interrogator of the Army's 196th Infantry Brigade. The soldier was convicted only of indecent acts with a child and assault. He served seven months and sixteen days for his crime.
A September 1967 incident in which an American sergeant killed two Vietnamese children -- executing one at point blank range with a bullet to the head. Tried by general court martial in 1970, the sergeant pleaded guilty to, and was found guilty of, unpremeditated murder. He was, however, sentenced to no punishment.
An atrocity that took place on February 4, 1968, just over a month before the My Lai massacre, in the same province by a man from the same division (Americal). The soldier admitted to his commanding officer and other men of his unit that he gunned down three civilians as they worked in a field. A CID investigation substantiated his confession and charges of premeditated murder were preferred against him. The soldier requested a discharge, which was granted by the commanding general of the Americal Division, in lieu of court martial proceedings.
A series of atrocities similar to, and occurring the same year as, the "Tiger Force" war crimes in which one unit allegedly engaged in an orgy of murder, rape and mutilation, over the course of several months.
IMO they pale compared to VC atrocities... like cutting the arms off village children who accepted vaccinations.
One vet (RVN)I know well saw a enemy soldier skinned alive - senseless on both sides - Another friend was in Bosnia saw women being raped by un forces but it was not on his side of the line and could not do any thing about it. We will never know who did more on this side of life. All we can do is admit it is part of the story - Bob you are correct that some will use isolated incidents to condemn all who serve but that reflects on them who live in the peace provided by our valiant veterans
Book: Tiger Force another good read.
I have never been in war, so I can't really talk about this matter.
But I think that all those facts are just the product of human reactions to complex, highly distressing situations repeated for days, weeks and months.
Some people will react in a way, others will let the beast surface and become merciless or criminal.
But again, it is necessary to know the whole story, which is almost impossible to do.
I often think about one of the most famous pictures of the Nam war: Eddie Adams's photo of Brigadier General Nguyen Ngoc Loan shooting a Viet Cong prisoner.
I saw it once labeled "the pop into non-being". That caused me to really think a lot about it, and made that picture unforgettable and a bit haunting to me.
The General was considered a criminal at first. Then, information came through and the prisoner was accused of having killed the entire family of a colleague and friend of his.
Does this give a man the right to kill a beast? In peacetime it clearly does not (although I sometimes waver in this conviction of mine), but what about wartime. Such a war at that, practically a mix of civil war, clash of ideologies, colonial liberation war... With also a lot in terms of racial prejudice and cultural barriers...
It happened in all wars, is still happening now and will always happen.
As I do for many other things, I pray to God that, should I ever find myself in such a situation, I could remain a good person. Steadfast in my duties and obligations, but still human. Retain a vivid conscience, a human conscience, a Christian conscience.
But I will never bet a cent on this, until tested by reality. Which, if everything goes the way I hope, will never occur.
Not much of a contribution, but I felt like writing it.
No, I think that was an excellent contribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
Bob
No Ovidio, it was an excellent post. Thoughtful and introspective normal concerns for anyone who isn't a sociopath. I too am a Christian and struggled with inner doubts about how would I react if I was thrust into a Hellish war. There was some solace in knowing that the commandment "Thou shalt not Kill" was incorrectly translated from the original Hebrew's "Thou shalt not commit Murder" so I knew as long as I followed my country's ROEs I didn't put my soul in jeopardy. I never saw combat either so I have no idea of how I would have reacted to a brutish enemy. Civilized people don't rape. murder, torture, burn alive, hide behind, or sell into sexual slavery enemy non-combatants so I'll never condemn anyone's reaction to same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
I wore the Army uniform during three wars. The Vietnam War, and both Gulf Wars though I only got to the last one at 57 years old. I've not been in combat but trained for combat for 24 years. I've known many veterans of war back to WWI during which my paternal grandfather served in the 77th Division, my uncle Rudy in the Marines. My dad in the pacific theater during WWII. The bottom line is war is the ugliest of human endeavors and there is nothing cut and dried about it. Evil and bad things happen done by good men because of circumstances beyond individual control. Paratroopers shot Germans surrendering during the Normandy invasion as there was no other choice. To let them live only allows them to kill you later. Remember "Saving Private Ryan" and who shot CPT Miller? A very real possibility. While it seems inhuman to murder prisoners and wounded survival is one of the strongest of emotions and the survival of self and comrades is critical. That however really isn't the same as outright murder such as the incident at Mai Lai which was indisputably a war crime. At least these days most wars don't involve killing everyone indiscriminately as in the old days, that however is always a possibility and it is happening in many places all over the world this very day. We are the same creatures were were 10,000 years ago and have not progressed all that much, we just have better technology.
I would have shot those Germans surrendering at Normandy in a heartbeat... you kill GIs all morning, then when you start to lose you want to quit? I don't think so.
Many years ago, one of my clients complained about what happen to him when he finally raised his hands and gave up.
He received a M1 Grand butt-stock in the face. He was upset about it. After all he stood up and raised his hands from being in back of his MG42 that he had been shooting with.
That said interesting fellow. Fought in Africa, Italy, Russia and finally gave up in France. Airborne also.
Had another client that was a BAR gunner during the war. Had to keep them on the other side of the store away from each other.
Interesting folks.
Later 42rocker
FIFTEEN MINUTES AGO: A VIETNAM WAR MEMOIR
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Said he still sees the face of the first enemy he killed - Have heard this before from others - Something that will always be with you - heavy thing to carry
And the details stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester
In some of my books especially WWI & the Pacific Theatre in WWII the descriptions and intensity of the killing belies description and I will freely admit at times just trying to imagine what the person is experiencing brings on to beggar belief, losing friends, being buried & dug out, in WWII endless IJA soldiers attacking, steaming jungles, Kamikazes.
War degrades the humanity in ppl to its most primeval to survive, yes troops train hard and often for battle but until one is there does it prepare you.
Books I have like WWI -Warm Blood Cold Steel on WWI portrays it as it is harrowing nightmare, Lynn MacDonalds Passchendaele is another along with The Price Of Glory By Maclister (I think) the French at Verdun.
I believe war is basically a political endeavour and they should fight each other with clubs to death and let the ordinary folk live in tranquility not force them to engage in actions that make and alter people forever.
The saddest thing I have ever witnessed was ppl spitting at our troops coming home from VN calling them baby killers I was only 14 years old and would have punched them in the face to quieten them for showing disrespect again the media portraying all troops as animals.
I like Marks saying it is true we sleep well because of the soldiers that do the good deeds in accordance with the so called rules of war.
"There are no great men, only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet."