Bittersweet Acquisition

Recently, my long time friend, next door neighbor, and fellow carbine lover, Bill R, passed away unexpectedly. I have been helping his brother George, his executor, go through and liquidate his belonging, including selling off his guns (which included two M1 Carbines) through the gun shop I work at.

I was surprised when George presented me with one of the carbines, saying "Bill would want you to have this!". He also gave me a small wood ammo crate full of pouches, Carbine parts, magazines, accessories and minty M4 Bayonet.

Its just a really nice Saginaw mix-master in a birch potbelly stock, no import marks, and purplish Inland Type 4 trigger guard (I suspect CMP Bavarian or German ancestry). ME is "0" though, so it should be a good shooter. Ill post pics later. It will be a brother for my early featured IBM late war partial rebuild.

There are no words to say how touched I am. It will be cherished and shot much, thinking off hours spent talking across the fence with my friend. Nothing can ease the shock and pain of loosing a good friend that you see almost daily, but the Carbine (which I named Bill) will give me great memories every time I shoot it.

Adios, Mi Hermano....

one thing. At first glance, I did not see any markings on the barrel at all. That with the fact the ME was "0", and the finish was excellent on the barrel leads me to believe it was re-barreled. I do have a vague recollection years ago of him getting a barrel from CMP for one of the Carbines, and having it rebarreled. Weren't those barrels from Criterion? Did they have markings. I don't offhand recall any GI barrels being unmarked.

IRM,
Is the gas cylinder milled or swaged?
Is gas cylinder marked?
Barrel skirt long or short?
Any markings on the flat?
Any signs of a P stamp?

Charley, I haven't gone through it yet. I will break it down and give a full report with pics. At first glance, though, "Bill" should be a good shooter! While my dad had an Inland on Iwo, he had a Saginaw on Okinawa. We lived in Chicago, and I vaguely remember us going to Grand Rapids Michigan when I was a kid (I'm 72) because he wanted to see where his Saginaw was made. After that, he had a life long love of GM cars.....maybe because he said his Carbine never let him down!

Here it is. NO markings on barrel or gas block. Swaged in barrel, no pi, and non GI muzzle crown. Short barrel skirt? Hemphill Type II rear sight. Hammer is Winchester, not sure about the rest in the Inland Type IV trigger housing. Type VI slide and unmarked round bolt with oil hole on bottom.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../V5uD6BJ-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../x2ifYke-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ZfINup6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1gfT3ST-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../DIkYsTc-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../PvomGJY-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Ij0x3x4-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../WHOr9SF-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../aSmPYJn-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../suFqJdk-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../bNnUcA8-1.jpg

I have no idea what barrel it is. Someone on CMP suggested Erma, as the trigger guard looks "Germanish". I checked M1 Carbines Inc, and the show a Erma barrel. Mine the ring in front of the gas block is more pronounced than on the Erma, and the crown is not rounded like Erma. Its not a chrome lined Herlo (as it is not chrome lined). Maybe Criterion or Green Mountain? Are Criterion and Green Mountain marked?

Any input appreciated. I know its just a mixmaster, with zip for collector value. I'm just curious about the barrel. It will be my "Keeper" because it was my friend's.

I just put the pictures of the Erma barrel and my barrel side by side, sized the same.* The rings in front of the gas block look the same (though mine seems a tad more pronounced, but that could be photos).* I haven't found pictures of any other M1 Carbine barrels with that ring except Erma.* As for the crown, he may have had it re-crowned by a local machinist that both Bill and I know who does re-crowns.

If it was an Erma, though, it would have proofs. In the end, I have no idea! LOL.

If you had or could find the original barrel it might give you a clue. My Underwood barrel is extremely lightly struck with an Arlington Ordinance import stamp. The large majority of the carbines they brought in came back from Korea. It has the dark bluish metal and plum colored trigger guard that you would expect from a European return. It also sits in a stampless M2 stock, cut down type III barrel band, arsenal mismatch and adjustable rear sight completes the package.

If you can find no evidence of stampings on the top left of the receiver or the front of the trigger guard chances are it could be a return from Korea. However without the original barrel it will always be a mystery.

In this case (for reasons I will NOT elaborate on!) the M2 cut Pot Belly stock, I am sure, is a replacement Bill made!

Another item that was included was a MINT WW2 vintage Camillus M4 bayonet. Checked it against "Bayonet Points" guide, and it is definitely WW 2 production with "X" stamp on pommel, peened catch pins, polished steel under smooth park finish, and correct smashed end of pommel. Checked later Camillus commercial ones, and they are very different.

EDIT: M4 bayonet is probably 1990s commercial/. "X" is vertical rather than horizontal. The devil is in the details!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Checked it against "Bayonet Points" guide, and it is definitely WW 2 production with "X" stamp on pommel

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

EDIT: M4 bayonet is probably 1990s commercial/. "X" is vertical rather than horizontal. The devil is in the details

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Regardless, an X would have not been WWII production, it would be either Korean War era or commercial.
Bayo Points 8

Curious, what markings if any are on the recoil check?

"Recoil Check SPAIN". He had two, both were Spanish made. As a side note, the potbelly has a recoil plate marked SG with an R over it. That's a coincidence!

That would be an SG recoil plate that was transferred to Rock-ola.

IRM,
I believe you called the trigger housing a type IV. It's milled for the M2 mods.

Bill probably picked it up at a show and changed it out. "Bill" is just an ugly duckling mix-master, but that's OK. Its quirky, just like my friend, its name sake, was LOL. I have a range date on the 24th to see how it shoots.

Yes it is! It actually came with two M2 trigger housings. The purple one in the gun, and a parked one in the box of spare parts.. "Spare parts" are good tho have .

I'm thinking maybe it is an ERMA barrel, maybe recently re-crowned. The SG has the purple trigger housing indicating possible German/Austrian use, and it has the distinctive collar in front of the gas block. According to M1 Carbines Inc. (see link) these barrels are found unmarked on some of these Ger/Aus Carbines, and they are the only ones with the distinctive collar. First three pics are Erma and show a bit of variation in the collar. Criterion and Green Mountain do not have the collar, at least in the pics I have seen. As for the SG being in a birch pot belly, that may have been switched out by my friend to have an M2 stock.

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ZmNA95g-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../qQWRdy1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../GjXkiws-1.jpg

My barrel:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../PvomGJY-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Ij0x3x4-1.jpg

Open to all opinions. The key, of course, is how does it shoot. That'sall that really matters to me!

I have to say, though, the "blonde" birch pot-belly stock bugs me. I have a nice walnut pot-belly stock that I'm going to put the Saginaw. First, I'll clean and freshen it with my 50/50 Mineral Spirits / Raw Linseed oil mix. I use it to scrub the grime off with a green kitchen scratch pad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

the "blonde" birch pot-belly

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You could strip the finish with liquid and use a Fiebings leather die to darken it. I did northern maple to as dark and walnut on a savage pump 30/30...looked perfect.

The birch potbelly stock has a repaired crack by the recoil lug, high on the wrist, so I put it in a post-war walnut pot belly stock I have that is intact.* Pics soon.* Headed to the range tomorrow to shoot it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I'm thinking maybe it is an ERMA barrel, maybe recently re-crowned. The SG has the purple trigger housing indicating possible German/Austrian use, and it has the distinctive collar in front of the gas block. According to M1 Carbines Inc. (see link) these barrels are found unmarked on some of these Ger/Aus Carbines, and they are the only ones with the distinctive collar. First three pics are Erma and show a bit of variation in the collar. Criterion and Green Mountain do not have the collar, at least in the pics I have seen. As for the SG being in a birch pot belly, that may have been switched out by my friend to have an M2 stock.

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ZmNA95g-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../qQWRdy1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../GjXkiws-1.jpg

My barrel:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../PvomGJY-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Ij0x3x4-1.jpg

Open to all opinions. The key, of course, is how does it shoot. That'sall that really matters to me!

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Late info but I just found pictures of Criterion barrels and they are marked on the right side above the op slide groove.

Auto-Ordnance / Kahr uses or did use Green Mtn barrels. They use a cast gas piston housing
swaged to the barrel.

So I'd say we can rule out both as being possibles on your carbine. So far Erma appears to be the closest.

YEP, thats what I suspect also. I have looked at pics of various Erma barrels, and there seems to be some variation in the size of the collar in front of the gas black. I believe Bill had gotten the Carbine from CMP when they first came available. Considering it had a purplish trigger guard, and according to M1 Carbines Inc., some of the the Carbines used by the Budeswehr in the 50s had unmarked Erma barrels, IIRC.

IRM,
Did you feel the earthquake today?

Have you got out to shoot 'Bill' yet ?

Nope, I didn't feel it. Too far away I guess. As for shooting "Bill," I had to cancel my range session, as my shooting buddy's father ended up in ICU. I am scheduled to work as an RSO at the local Sportsman Club range later this month. Thought I would go in early and shoot it.

IRM,
Did you want me to come out and shoot 'Bill' for you? :madsmile:
Just wondering if you forgot about us.
Looking forward to the results.

LOL.. Believe it or not, I have not had a chance to shoot "Bill" yet (or any other gun for that matter!). I have had to cancel 4 planned range trips for one reason or another. I have a new (to me) 1981 Ruger Mini-14 GB model and a new Riley Defense AK to shoot, also.

Being the Patriarch of the clan, for the last two months, on top of work part time at the gun shop, I have been "mechanicing" family vehicles and RVs, plumbing broken pipes, installing single point gas water heaters and gas wall heaters, traveling with my daughter to a distant equestrian endurance ride and running the camp for her while she rode, and cutting up and splitting 3 or 4 cords of oak with my wife, not to mention the numerous grandpa duties and kids basketball games. Oh I forgot, my wife and I also got COVID for the second time!

It looks like I may have a free weekend in about two weeks, though. We will see, and I will keep you all posted

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I also got COVID for the second time!

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I did that too. Turned out to be just a case of the sniffles and runny nose for me. Long time ago now.

Ours wasn't any worse that a bad cold for three or four days, but stayed positive for a dang week. It did, however, trigger a rather nasty Asthma attack that sent me to ER for a breathing treatment. Getting old sucks, sometimes!

IRM just be careful, Seems like when your really run down is when a sickness grabs on the hardest. Years back being my Daughters Equestrian Roadie kicked my rear end. But looking back, I'd do it all again if it didn't kill me trying.
We'll be patiently waiting....

IRM,
I too recently lost my next door neighbor of just over 40 years the 2nd week of March. His Daughter, our town Mayor gave me a few of his hand guns and some of the boxed ammo with them over Memorial weekend. Same ammo I had reloaded for him. His first name was also Bill. I've made plans to shoot them with his only son Matt this coming week. It's hard looking over the fence knowing he won't ever yell back again, with the obscenities' only a Teamster could fine tune.

So... It looks like we're in the same boat now. Both of us needing to get to the range and send a few in honor of our long time neighbors that became friends.
If we lived closer I'd pick you up so we could honor both at the same time.

To Neighbors that became Lifelong Friends :beerchug:

And as I replied early on, I know the commitment involved when it comes to helping a loved one compete in the Equestrian World, both physically and financially.

Will wait for your report on shooting your 'Bill' and I'll share mine here also.

VR

That makes 3 of us. I'm banned from the range for another couple of weeks since I had that work done on my heart. I've been trying to get out there ever since I picked up the IP carbine. I also have an M1D that I want to shoot/sight in. Between all the time I've been spending working on the estate of my friend and now this heart surgery, I haven't even been able to shoot skeet in months! Warning! Don't get old and don't retire! You won't have any time left to enjoy your hobbies!

Yea,
I read that Jim and got concerned and was going to message you. My Cardio Doc is pushing me too about heart rhythms, but I've known about it since my 1st real physical for the Olympic trials back in school. Nothing they can do anyways. Figure I'm too old to die now.... :madsmile:

I'm feeling pretty good now and am looking forward to getting back out to the range. They told me that for a few weeks I would have some strange feelings in my chest. They were right. Nothin bad, just odd. Another week and I should be able to go shooting. They restricted my driving for just a few days. No heavy lifting for a couple of weeks, same for shooting. After that, I can return to "normal" activities. Today is day 8. SOON! I want to shoot both of those firearms!

Hi guys, I still haven't gotten to the range. I usually work two days a week at the gun shop, but for the last two months I have been full time, filling in for the full timer who has been out for a serious injury and surgeries. That, with all the commitments as a grandparent for the summer has not left me a minute to sneak off to the range. I even had to cancel my annual 5 day cowboy action match I go to in mid may.I hope by August things will slow down when he finally comes back to work and I go back to two days a week instead of five.

Hang in there Jim, and listen to the doctors. At our age, they keep us running like a mechanic that restores old cars.....

At 76, I qualified as an antique long ago. My problem is that spare/ replacement parts aren't readily available!

LOL. I'm 73, and share your pain! I have made several nice acquisitions, though, working full time.

I got a C96 "Bolo" Mauser with a shoulder stock and 600 rounds of ammunition for one. It is in very good condition, but the bore is shot out and the rounds keyholes. I will probably get it re-lined for $375

Also acquires a HK G3 build made out of Portuguese FMP made G3 parts, on a PTR receiver and trunnion, with a PTR match grade barrel. It had green poly furniture, but I installed some wood CETME furniture instead. It has a steel SEF trigger guard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimb16

At 76, I qualified as an antique long ago. My problem is that spare/ replacement parts aren't readily available!

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We'll get some REPRO PARTS for you. Fix you right up. :thup:

REPRO PARTS! Over my dead body! I want all originals! You know how us collectors are!