Sawn off K98

Hi all, a happy new year to all my fellow milsurpers

Here's an interesting one, I follow a group on FB who excavate interesting war time relics from across Europe. Always interesting to see what's dug up from the battlefields.

One such piece is a heavily cut down K98, I would estimate to about 12" barrel.

Now, those who have experience shooting the Alpine K98, with full fat 7.92x57 mm, will know it's recoil is not particularly pleasant.

The relic hunter appears to imply that it was common practice to cut down K98s ( as per this relic) for close fighting.

I am going to call bullshit on this, because the recoil would be absolutely ferocious and unshootable in my opinion, probably get a foot long flame out of it too...

I'm guessing a simple broken barrel from a close artillery blast.

Opinions guys?

Hard to tell, of course, but that still looks too clean a cut to be explosive damage. I'm sure there were experiments and the odd idiot on the battlefield with their guns, but it wouldn't be a common practice, just perhaps a known thing. Even a 16" .30-06/8mm is ridiculous, but those were done at the issuing level in a country or two.

Closest I can come to that... German Mauser Obrez Pistol - Forgotten Weapons


An Obrez (Russian for "Sawed-Off") is a name commonly associated with extensively modified bolt-action rifles, cut down to a much shorter length. This practice, which usually involves removing all but the last 4-8 inches of the barrel, as well as much of the furniture, the front sights and the buttstock, results in a significantly lighter and more concealable weapon at the cost of accuracy and range, to be used in lieu of a handgun or purpose-built carbine. While the sawing-off of service rifles into improvised close-quarters weapons was observed on most fronts during World War I as the tactic of trench raiding became more common, the so-called Obrez is today perhaps most commonly associated with the Russian Civil War.

That "barrel" is pretty much all chamber, so the only "practical" purpose I can see for it would be as a contact weapon, and the expanding gases are probably gonna do all the damage to the, um, "target."

The cut down Mauser 98 reminds me of the Lee Enfield tunneler's cut down rifles from WW1. Digging tunnels to lay explosives often required a smaller/shorter variation
of the standard rifle. Examples of the Lee Enfield with approx six inch barrels and a full butt stock are known.

Perhaps another reason for a shorter barrel on the stand rifle might be for crewmen of a tank or simular vehicle

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Closest I can come to that... German Mauser Obrez Pistol - Forgotten Weapons


An Obrez (Russian for "Sawed-Off") is a name commonly associated with extensively modified bolt-action rifles, cut down to a much shorter length. This practice, which usually involves removing all but the last 4-8 inches of the barrel, as well as much of the furniture, the front sights and the buttstock, results in a significantly lighter and more concealable weapon at the cost of accuracy and range, to be used in lieu of a handgun or purpose-built carbine. While the sawing-off of service rifles into improvised close-quarters weapons was observed on most fronts during World War I as the tactic of trench raiding became more common, the so-called Obrez is today perhaps most commonly associated with the Russian Civil War.

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You couldn't pay me enough to shoot that monstrosity Jim, the recoil would be appalling!

There is a rather obvious reason for the cut, if we are assuming it's a deliberate cut.

Battlefield clean up, so huge were the numbers of small arms recovered, it's possible that anything damaged, was simply cut in half and buried, note no bolt...

In Holland, huge numbers of small arms and munitions of all sorts were simply thrown into ponds and canals.

Recoil? I have a Thompson Contender in 7:30 Waters. Nothing to it, holding it with no stock at all, pistol grip. Barrel slightly longer than this. Also very accurate. They make their current handguns in 308 and 30-06.

Probably a lot less than you expect, the short barrel isn't going to allow for a lot of pressure push back.

As for the gun in question, could have been a one off, not something commonly done.

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Originally Posted by RCS

the Lee Enfield tunneler's cut down rifles from WW1

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Not this old chestnut again!

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Recoil? ... Probably a lot less than you expect, the short barrel isn't going to allow for a lot of pressure push back.

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That's what I was thinking, too.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

the recoil would be appalling!

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The flash would be like an anti tank gun...blast would kill everything within a 25yd range.

Cutting weapons down for lightness and ease of carry was a trademark of the Special Forces in Vietnam, particularly for their "Over the Fence" missions into Laos and Cambodia. One member famously carried a cut down M60 for fire superiority when required, another, a helicopter pilot for clandestine insertions carried a cut down M2 Carbine to hose down anyone charging his chopper and John "Tilt" Meyer of RT Idaho fame turned an M79 grenade launcher into a handgun.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

Cutting weapons down for lightness and ease of carry was a trademark of the Special Forces in Vietnam,

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NVA also. I saw a collection of M2 carbines that had barrels shortened, some had sights installed again. Some had the wood cut down too and barrels short like an M1 Enforcer. Some had double loop slings installed to go over your forearms so it would be in place while you handled an equipment bicycle on the Ho Chi Min trail.

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

another, a helicopter pilot for clandestine insertions carried a cut down M2 Carbine to hose down anyone charging his chopper

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Do these guys bother with remounting a front sight and zeroing, just in case they need to maybe aim at some point?

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Originally Posted by MAC702

Do these guys bother with remounting a front sight and zeroing

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Zeroing...might be a chore. A front sight sometimes is mounted but aimed shots from a two hander without a stock could also be a clutch...

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Originally Posted by MAC702

Do these guys bother with remounting a front sight and zeroing, just in case they need to maybe aim at some point?

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Most of these Special Forces cut down weapons were extreme close range break contact weapons only. SF A Teams were generally "light" meaning two Americans and 3-4 Indig or Montagnards. They weren't equipped for extended firefights and when discovered they did a mag dump, threw a frag and 'beat 6' (retreated to the rear) all while calling for an exfil. There was very little ability or need to aim at an enemy when in 6' tall Elephant grass or triple canopy jungle, they simply blasted in the direction of the enemy hoping to slow them down. Further, the SF troopers also carried other weapons such as the XM177/CAR15, K Gun, AK47, and others. John Meyer kept his M79 'handgun' in a custom made holster so it was handy if he needed it but mostly relied on his rifle.