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Picked out amongst various other WWI and WWII relics. I initially thought it was for the MG34, but there seem to be various differences. Any idea what it is from? It’s about 32cm long and 4.5cm wide at the rear.
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It weighs 863 grams. If I had to guess, I’d say it had been machined from solid rather than stamped.
Very Interesting. Hope someone posts the answer.
Later 42rocker
German MG 81 machine gun...
Thank you. :)
I would flatter myself that I am reasonably knowledgeable about WWII German small arms, but I have no recollection of previously hearing of the MG81 before your post. I would guess they are rarer than the MG34 and MG42?
It was purchased purely as a ‘have fun cleaning it up’ project and I am hoping to restore some functionality to the feed mechanism as it seems to be intact and not badly rust damaged. I intend to give it a soak in some Sodium Citrate solution. (The budget Evaporust alternative) Hopefully some of the markings will still be legible.
Further googling suggests it’s from the left hand gun in an MG81Z (twin) installation. I can also faintly make out ‘G’ and ‘8’ markings.
Maybe a reverse electrolysis candidate? Would sure make most of that rust fall off...
My photos show the type of disintegrating links used with the 7,92x57 cartridges in the MG 81
These links have WW2 German markingsAttachment 138448Attachment 138449Attachment 138450
I would suggest evaporust. I did electrolysis once before I found/used this stuff. Not sure if it's available in the UK though.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
You can get Evaporust in the UK, but it’s expensive. This stuff is almost as good and a lot cheaper:Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
The Ultimate HOMEMADE Rust Remover (Better than EvapoRust) - YouTube
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Thank you. I’ve read they have special links, but hadn’t seen a clear illustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS
---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------
Yes. I might do the heavy lifting with electrolysis and then finish it off in Sodium Citrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Sorry to hear that. It's super cheap here. On another topic, that backyard ballistics guy has another video I saw where he uses a micro stick welder (jewelry welder?) to fill in severe pitting. The kit he used though was I think in the $thous.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
I was very surprised in the video at ~11:56, and now I wonder if the UK formulation of evaporust is different than here, perhaps different regulations? I bring it up because I have the same gallon jug, been used for dozens of projects most of which were way worse off than his magazines. I have never seen evaporust turn black, and my jug is still going. I'm almost certain the pH of evaporust is much higher than his solution which is why it was taking longer after after a few test pieces. I didn't see him provide the pH of evaporust, or did I miss it? Nonetheless, the sodium citrate recipe is in my notebook now in case I ever need it.
I’ve used Evaporust (I have a small can in the garage) and it works well, but from my perspective it is expensive for what it is and doesn’t seem to last as long as the manufacturer implies. I therefore save it for removing rust from small / delicate items and use cheaper rust removal methods for larger or more robust items.
There is a machine gun collector & shooter who goes by the name "Heck in Ohio" who owns a a pair of of MG 81's. Sometimes he posts photos firing these on gunboards
Progress. I started by giving the latch end a soak in Sodium Citrate to clear a patch of clean metal. Then I gave it an overnight electrolysis treatment. There’s some way to go yet, but overall it has worked well. I’m particularly pleased that the maker markings are still clearly legible and I believe they show it is from the left hand gun in a Zwilling mount, made by Wagner u. Co. GmbH of Mühlhausen (gal). Can anything be determined date wise from the 69 747 serial number?
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Yes, it's coming along.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
Attachment 138475Thank you. I think the law of diminishing returns has hit with the electrolysis so I have finished that and immersed the front half in a bath of Sodium Citrate (pending finding a better container that will take the whole thing whilst minimising wasted volume). It’s bubbling away which hopefully means the remaining rust is being chelated and dissolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
As you may have guessed, I’m quite enjoying this. :)
After you'll be wanting to know where the rest is...and wondering what this was doing just a minute before it was separated.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
I would imagine it was excavated from a dug dump pit. Most probably in Eastern Europe somewhere. I don’t recall the trader having any other large MG parts on his tables so who knows what became of the rest of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Having been reading up on the MG81 (a weapon with which I was not previously familiar) I have learned they were an aircraft gun, but later in the war as the Luftwaffe’s fortunes waned many were converted into ground or AA guns. Having an idea of when it was made might give an indication of probability on whether it was used in an aircraft or not.
I did find this ‘gal’ marked example that was supposedly recovered from an aircraft shot down in 1941:
Deactivated Super Rare Luftwaffe MG81 Machine Gun
I would guess that probably most of the UK’s population of MG81’s are crash relics like the above.
Nice piece, yes the rest was probably just part of wreckage and tossed into the hole.
Muriatic acid (as used in swimming pools) will remove rust extremely quickly. Neutralize with water and blow dry before it flash rusts. The fumes are a bit harsh, so do it on a windy day outside or use a facemask with an appropriate filter in a large open space. Not recommended for use in an apartment or home.
There may be pitting afterwards, but thats not from the acid, that is the pitting left from the rust process.
One of my favorites around here, wondered if it might eat some of this cover but I guess you're right. Steel will take it. Yes the rust just disappears.Quote:
Originally Posted by stencollector
Nearly there. I will hopefully soon move onto the dismantling phase which will begin with a long soak in penetrating oil. I was pleased to find (when I gave it an experimental tap with a plastic hammer) that the extractor spring is still strong.
Probably a long shot, but could anyone point me towards some info on how it comes apart? I am aware of a scan of the WWII German operator manual available online which contains illustrations of it taken apart. This is very helpful, but it isn’t quite a dismantling guide and still leaves some guesswork.
PS. Has anyone apart from me spotted the aviation themed serial number? The first flight of the Boeing 747 was in 1969. :D
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Honestly? Unless an owner pops up here, I'd order the user manual for the $30USD and go from there. If you have the whole thing it would help. I'm also guessing you have some aside mechanical ability which will help. It's going to be tough because of it's condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
The link to the manual... German MG Manuals
Look on page 28 and 29. Then look at your top cover.
John translates and reprints a great manual.
Long how well it's coming out from what it was.
Later 42rocker
Molasses from your friendly local stock-feed supplier also works. Makes the place smell like a sugar mill, as well. Not to be used on Zinc alloy items like Carburetor bodies..........
NOTHING of my experience will "recover" rusted springs. The residual micro-pits are the potential stress risers that will result in fractures..
Always run "test pieces" in your chosen brew, before committing anything of potential value to the pot. Glass or ceramic containers work well, as do heavy polyethylene "trays" or buckets made from re-purposed chemical containers.
Progress… A 2-3 week soak in penetrating oil allowed the rear retention screw to undo which meant I could remove the rear locking mechanism parts. The next bit to focus on is the rectangular wedge of metal in the middle that retains the belt feed mechanism. So far it has shown no signs of wanting to move.
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Eventually it'll come free. Not sure how well everything will manipulate after.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
It's interesting that the main part of the top cover appears to have been machined from a solid billet of steel rather than being a pressing as you might expect.
I believe the MG81 top covers come in both milled and stamped flavours. Whether my one started as a partially finished forging or was literally machined from solid I don’t know. It is ridiculously over-engineered given Germany’s military situation at the time.
My assumption is machined from a solid billet of steel.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
What !!!!!!!!:lol:
Simple photo op for laughs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
They need have a laugh somewhere Jim though I doubt the military press would sanction this pic !!!
I'll bet the Military press posted this... I was pictured with the assistant minster of Na'tnl defense in Canada once in Wainwright AB. He was down behind the 1919A4 machine gun and they wanted an action shot. I took the lead out end of the live belt and held it up to the side of the feed way of an empty MG for the pic. My compatriots roasted me for allowing the shot...I had to show the photog about three times, the chrome double link and how it wasn't even in the gun. It's very clear to me in the pic...also they had lots to say about no hearing protection...but we weren't shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Nice pic, yes, I see the chrome link.
Is it just me or is the rear site bracket bent just a hair??
Later 42rocker
The pic has a fish eye bulge to it. The man directly behind me is the BDE Comd and he has a head shaped like a peanut. He didn't in real life. The gun was worn but the sight was OK as I remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by 42rocker
LOL
Just noticed that the rd in the chrome link is being held to far forward to be fed into the opening. Loader could push all he wants, still not going to feed. Yes, sight might be good. Still
Thanks for sharing the pic.
Later 42rocker
Loader is me, the link is right at the feed pawls but outside. That was what I was telling you, I had the first link clear of the gun and the photog couldn't grasp it. I had to pull it away about three times to show him.Quote:
Originally Posted by 42rocker
Who is the civie in the baseball cap choofing a durrie ! everyone appears to be not wearing muffs.
I always wear them when on the rear of the mound/firing point my hearing is stuffed as it is all those years spent right next to screaming engines the GM 2 strokes were the worst offenders absolutely scream to get anything out of the lattice crane.
We were hosting a range for mostly civilian contractors that had business with the military. Big dollar bosses. They were shooting all out various things as a public relation thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
That's because we aren't shooting...more the point of the photog and the pic of the muzzle end of the 1919A4. I took lots of flack from my peers for not having ear defenders on while doing loader for the MG. Except we weren't live right then.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
You were right. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
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Picture of the internals marked L (Links / Left) for a left-hand Zwilling gun. I assume the parts in a Right / Rechts gun would be a mirror image.
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There are still various other parts to free up, but I think I’ve broken the back of it. Slightly strange to think I’m the first person in 80 years to see it like this.
On the home stretch now. That’s the ejector assembly completely dismantled. I have also cleaned up the two feed levers. This leaves the front receiver locking catch and the middle feed shoot locking catch on the top cover, but I am minded just to leave those alone due to the risk of damaging them while trying to get them apart. The feed shoot catch is already moving freely.
The internal parts have very little corrosion, which I would put down to them being tucked away and protected by original grease.
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Looks mostly serviceable now.
I think everything is mechanically functional enough to go on a non-firing display gun. As for a live firing gun - the ejector assembly and some other small parts might still be functional, but new springs would probably be sensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Finished. :) Everything has been cleaned, reblued, oiled and reassembled. All the moving parts only require finger pressure to move - quite a contrast to January when everything was completely frozen with corrosion.
Well almost finished. A final icing on the cake would be highlighting the well preserved markings with white paint. (Well why not? It’s only ever going to be a display piece) Unfortunately I don’t have a steady enough hand and the pitting means you can’t just dab it on and wipe away the excess.
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Nice. Manipulatable...