H/T to Sapper740 for cluing me in about Gordon's books. Thanks again!
These three volumes, published some years ago, contain a staggering amount of information. Do errata/update sheets for these three volumes exist anywhere?
NOT criticizing on any level his Herculean effort; just wondering whether any updated information exists about the multitude of subjects he covered.
You might want to poke around his website. And / or email him and ask??
WWII British Military Surplus, WWII British Tommy Books, British Militaria
Great Books
Later 42rocker
As far as I know there is no errata sheet for David's series of books. His latest edition of the 3 book set is labelled "Revised and Expanded" and I asked him about that when they came out and was told his research had uncovered much more information on the subjects. Interestingly, David remarked in the acknowledgements that even the revised and expanded books are "by no means comprehensive" but are a "good start". He's off to a reenactment this weekend so I don't want to bother him but I'll give him a call next week to see about getting your question answered.
Thanks. Didn't know he was still working on this project. I think (am certain) I have earlier versions of the three volumes, so will look for the most recent editions.
When you speak with him please ensure he understands I mean no offense, but every time somebody publishes something people come out of the woodwork with "additional information" they wish you'd had when you wrote the book (ask me how I know this...).
I'd also like to find out about whether the sniper Dennison smock had a pocket watch tab on an inside pocket similar to the one shown on the officer's Service Dress jacket on page 5 of the 2005 edition of his Uniforms volume. More to the point, can he tell me where/how snipers typically carried their pocket watch on active service? I'd expect this was generally left up to the individual, and obviously not an issue if they wore a wristwatch.
I've read many snipers carried their compass on a long strap around their neck and tucked inside the battledress/smock. Was it common to do the same with a pocket watch? Not sure I'd want the two banging together inside my shirt!
The compass was a delicate instrument and snipers were and still are, taught to keep it inside a top pocket on a piece of cord around the neck
There was no sniper Denison smock.Quote:
Originally Posted by tj214
There was only 2 patterns of Denison smock issued during WW2, 1st Patt and 2nd Patt, and snipers were issued a standard smock in whatever pattern was available (I'd say all were issued the 2nd Patt that served in the ETO) and any mods done to the smock (such as additional pockets or knitted cuffs etc) were done at the instigation of the individual sniper after issue.
tj, this might answer some of your questions: look on p. 135 of David's most recent book on uniforms covering modifications of the Denison smock. He states that special modification of the smock was approved for snipers on Feb. 24, 1945 which was the addition of an oversized external patch pocket on the left side of the smock's skirt. The modification was done at the unit level with materials scavenged from other smocks. The modification was optional and required the sniper's CO's permission. Another unofficial modification was sewing a short length of a Vicker's fabric machine gun belt to the forearm of one of the smock's sleeves to hold ammunition which could be accessed with a minimum of movement. There is no mention of a watch or compass pocket.
If you look on p. 265 of the same book David shows two leather lanyards that were private purchase popular with officers and NCOs to carry a watch, compass, or whistle. The single lanyard was made of leather and had a hole in each end, one to fit over a button, the other for attaching whatever to. The double lanyard was favored by officers of the Ox and Bucks when wearing battle dress.
Some people have confused the camoflaged windproof smock with the Denison smock which can lead to confusion although the two are quite different.
This isn't a far reach as the sniper section is considered the Commanding Officer's own section. Under his personal employment...so it would like asking dad if you could mow the lawn for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper740
That's an interesting mod, not heard of that....but a logical one for snipers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper740
I know one of the more popular mods with the Airborne (not necessarily a sniper one) was to remove the elasticated pockets from the parachutist oversmock, and have those re-stitched onto the Denison smock, which allowed extra ammo or grenades etc to be carried, these were often fitted to the lower rear sides of the smocks, or sometimes have been seen on the sleeves as well.
I see in Gordon's first edition (2005) of Uniforms of the WW II Tommy that First Pattern Dennisons had knitted cuffs vice Second Pattern did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
I misspoke (mistyped??) my question by referring to a "sniper" Dennison as I knew there was no specific sniper Dennision issued and should have said Dennisons worn by snipers.
I should have clarified my question to limit it to where a sniper night typically carry his pocket watch, and was a watch tab similar to the one on an officer's Service Dress jacket included or perhaps added by the sniper to secure his watch. And, I should have added "or was a pocket watch typically attached to a neck lanyard and carried inside the shirt or pocket?" similar to what Peter noted for the compass. As Sapper notes there was a late war sniper mod to the Dennision that added an oversized external patch pocket if approved by the unit commander, but that pocket was obviously not specifically intended to carry a pocket watch!
Re the "special match grade ammunition" Gordon mentions in connection with the short length of Vickers ammo belt sewn to a sleeve forearm, what exactly was this ammo? I can't find reference to it in any of Gordon's pubs, and if it's been discussed on this site I missed it. I saw a reference a few weeks ago to some snipers preferring Winchester .303 for its better accuracy, so is this the answer?
Which brings us to two more unofficial modifications to the Denison smocks. The 1st pattern smock lacked the additional snaps to secure the tail-piece when not in use and led to many removing it completely to avoid having it dangle down in the rear. The knitted cuffs in the 1st pattern were appreciated for being windproof and led to short lengths of hose tops (socks) being sewn to the end of the arms on the 2nd pattern by some. As for David's "match grade" ammunition comment I'm not sure if he is referring to a specific match grade manufactured ammunition or simply referring to ammunition that is known for its accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tj214
As an amusing aside and speaking from personal experience, there is a large British Airborne reenacting community in Texas which prefers the 2nd pattern smock as it is cooler to wear when running around the countryside playing silly bugger in the Texas heat. When I used to reenact I'd go 'commando' under my 1st pattern smock and wool trousers lest I suffer from heat stroke. Now there's a 'modification' the Sergeant Major would frown on!
The knitted cuffs and the 'tail' isn't the only difference, as 1st Patt was longer in length and baggier in cut compared to the 2nd Patt. It was also slightly different in camo pattern and colours, The were was more base tan in the 1st Patt, and supposedly the original early production was hand-painted as opposed to the revised 1st Patt being screen printed as greater production needed, but I'm not sure if that's even been proved one way or another, and might well remain one of those unverified myths, but there seems to be a 'transitional' period when some of the later features of the 2nd Patt appeared in very late 1st Patt smocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper740
The 2nd Patt began to be issued in early '44, so most new airborne soldiers trained for ETO (and not served in Italy etc) had the 2nd Patt, as would have almost all snipers trained for the Overlord and ETO ops.
The cut was different on the 2nd Patt, not just the sleeves, as was the base colours and camo colours, being a bit darker, which was more suited to NW Europe ops, with 1st Patt better suited to Med where it originally saw most service. The half zip was brass as well on 2nd Patt (steel on 1st Patt)
In terms of unit mods to the Denison, I've heard but never seen one, that the ones issued to the Royal Marines were all unit modded by removing the half zip, which was replaced by buttons and loops (maybe toggles and loops from the navy issue duffel coat?)
Just an off beat Q ? with regards to the "Match" grade ammunition used could they be referring to the MkVIIIz MG ammo as this had the boat tail projectile AFAIK which was designed for the extra long range fire.
I read apparently it was loaded a bit hotter than the MkVIIz ball but well within the 303 rifles pressure limits.
I've heard it suggested some snipers preferred to use .303 "civilian" hunting ammo since it was deemed more accurate than any issue ammunition. Anybody ever heard of 'tween wars .303 civilian hunting ammo, as opposed to surplus issue ammunition used for civilian hunting?
Without detracting in any way from the Gordon books on equipment, he has unwittingly fallen into the one of the dilemmas of all authors, including myself, of just WHEN to publish.
The problem is that the moment you publish your book, the first person who buys and reads it immediately knows more than you, the author knows! That's because he knows all that YOU have written PLUS the tiny bit he knew earlier..
And I am as bad as the next man in this respect. As soon as I saw the 1st Bren Gun saga book, then the second, i said to myself words to the effect '.......why the xxxx didn't he ask me from an in-depth professional users point of view.....'. They were my (and all Armourers) bread and butter for 40 or so years. Sorry Blake and god bless you
Regarding the ammo used by the snipers (above). I can tell you that he got the ammunition he was issued with. If the ammo storeman listened, he would put the rest of the container aside, marked as 'for issue to the snipers' The snipers would go onto the ranges, accurately zero-in, knowing that the next lot, from the same batch would perform the same. The same applied to green-spot.
Dennison smocks. The knitted cuffs were the Achilles heel and always wearing out on the inside, through fair war and tear. They were easily repaired in the first instance by the user, darning the holes - as they were taught to do with their woolen socks up until the 70's or so. Yep, been there and done it. The second option was for the Regimental tailor to sew in NEW cuffs, made from the top of knitted socks......., in either dark grey or latterly, khaki. That's why the crunchies were issued with a roll of sewing and darning kit.needles and other odds and sods, called a 'housewife'
The best top, without doubt, was the camouflaged SMOCKS, windproof or later the uncamouflaged baggy windproof
Point taken about using issue ammo. If a sniper wanted to use "civilian hunting ammo" it would have been on his own dime to purchase...if such ammo existed in the first place. Was there such a thing as interwar "civilian hunting ammunition" that was not repurposed military issue ammo?
I would doubt it. The commercial PPU and S&B 303 ammo currently on the market is effectively a reproduction of the Mk.VIIIz MG ammo, as that is what both firms made post war, and both are crap in terms of accuracy in my 4T compared to real surplus Mk.VIIz ammo which is pretty much perfect, which is why its such a shame that its all gone, and no wants to make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------
More so when you consider if such ammo existed, it would not have been easy to get hold of in pre-war UK, let alone during wartime restrictions, so I think such an idea can be discounted.Quote:
Originally Posted by tj214
I wonder where the sniper would have obtained 'match grade' ammunition or hunting cartridges while in combat.
I wonder if David was referring to the special match ammunition made by Dominion Arsenals in Canada for sale to the DCRA? DAC made a match grade ammunition with a turquoise band ostensibly for civilian shooting competitions starting in 1939? but any military sniper familiar with use of that ammunition might have requested it, or is that a stretch too far? I also remember Kynoch making a match grade .303 British cartridge in the inter-war years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 AM ----------
Both Canada's Dominion Arsenal and Kynoch made match grade .303 British ammunition. DA starting in 1939 if memory serves me right and Kynoch a couple of years earlier so it's not in the realm of impossibility for a sniper to have had "Match Grade" ammunition during the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp