1886 Lebel Tube Magazine/Lifter Issue

Good Afternoon All,

Back from the range and the Lebel became an issue when using the tube magazine. It looks like the cartridges are feeding onto the floorplate fine but are getting knocked around by the next round and the bullets were pushed back into the case. Not sure if the next round had popped out of sequence but I am suspecting so. Rifle fires great in single-shot.

I am expecting that the issue is the little protrusion that should be holding the next cartridge in the tube. Please see below:

If needed, I would like to replace this part or find a smith who has made a fix.

Thanks,
Randy

First of all. I'd be a bit concerned by the lack of neck tension on the loads. That aside, I assume the cartridge stop (protrusion) holds the rounds in the tube while loading? I am assuming the last pic is showing a double feed type situation. Will a round in the tube pop free onto the lifter if you pry it up a little?

Good Evening,

Yes, the neck tension on my Lee Die set is off. I am using .327 bullets and Lee states their dies are for .323.

If I pry on the cartridge it does stay in place. However, every time I try to load a round, I get this double feed situation. I do note that the cartridge stop extension does not sit on the bottom of the case. It is somewhere on the rounded edge of the case. I would say it is approximately half-way up the rim.

Thanks,
Randy

I'm wondering if the shortened cartridges due to the bullet seating issue is causing this. As the spring forces the new cartridge onto the lifter, the second cartridge is just following along. Normal cartridge length would hold it out until the lifter starts up.

Is this correct?

Attachment 139453Attachment 139454

Kinda hard to tell from a pic like this, but it appears pretty close. If you can get a pick in at the bottom of the case rim, pry up,wiggle a bit and it doesn't release, the cartridge stop is most likely working ok for that function.
I don't think it's cartridge length, Aragorn. I can run empties easily through my Kropatschek, which has the same set up. I'm guessing either the stop tip is a hair too short, or the reset trip for it is getting retarded. A bent mag tube causing excessive mag spring pressure wouldn't help either. Just my two cents.

Try round nose projectiles.

Lebels are weird in that they are designed for pointed bullets. They base has a groove in it that holds the point off the primer and the shape of the cartridge also facilitates this.

Growing up and owning several Winchester lever actions, these bullets always make me nervous but as the Lebel has been around forever and never changed, it must work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rescuerandy2

Yes, the neck tension on my Lee Die set is off. I am using .327 bullets and Lee states their dies are for .323.

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Wouldn't this give you too much neck tension instead of too little?

Just as Aragorn says, the case shape tilts the rounds in the tube, keeping the bullet tips angled more towards the outer rim of the next round. The groove is an insurance policy which I would appreciate if jumping around into shell holes trying to keep alive.

My thoughts too. The sized neck measures .321-.322. Not sure what's going on and I am considering taking the decapper pin down a few thousands to give me more neck tension.

Randy

These side by side says much:


Attachment 139460Attachment 139461

Is that a crack?

There ya go. That crack would effectively lower the stop tip just enough to let a round by while working the action robustly enough to operate the lifter.

Here is the bad boy. Not totally sure as my French is nonexistent:

Attachment 139463

There are some pretty good vids on U-tube showing the operation of the rifle, and the feeding cycle. As long as it's all apart, looks like it would be worth your while to check the cam on the bottom of the lifter that pivots the stop up. Wear here could limit upward travel of the stop. The leaf spring pushing the stop up is another pertinent piece of the operation. Probably fine, but...

Will do!

Thanks,
Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Lebels are weird in that they are designed for pointed bullets. They base has a groove in it that holds the point off the primer and the shape of the cartridge also facilitates this.

Growing up and owning several Winchester lever actions, these bullets always make me nervous but as the Lebel has been around forever and never changed, it must work.

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They weren't designed for pointed bullets, rather adapted to them. Originally they used round nose bullets (actually more flat nosed), and in 1898 they switched to pointed. Only reason they could was because of that extreme taper in the case, more of a happy accident than anything else. Other than the groove in the case and the taper they also had a convex primer cover which was crimped over the primer as well. Really a cool design and history to it, but unfortunately for the French it resulted in them having the by far most obsolete service rifle out of any nation in the war.

Just a lot of poor decisions which carried through for the next 60 years. They rushed the development of the rifle to get it into the field first, which meant using a obsolesent design for the time (the same year the Mannlicher 86 system came out, within two years the Gewehr 88, within 3 years the 1889 Mauser). They rushed development of the cartridge to meet the same timeline, which resulted in the weird double taper of the 8mm Lebel and the huge rim on the cartridge. This cartridge would hold back French arms development for almost 40 years making machine gun designs more difficult, the fact it was able to be adopted to a pointed cartridge in the Lebel meant it didn't force the French to adopt a more modern design, and it made more modern designed magazine rifles more difficult (such as the 3/5 shot berthiers, and the later semi-autos).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

because of that extreme taper in the case, more of a happy accident than anything else. Other than the groove in the case and the taper they also had a convex primer cover which was crimped over the primer as well.

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Talk about an over complex cartridge to have to make.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Talk about an over complex cartridge to have to make.

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It really was. Set them back for a long time in comparison to the more efficient cartridges developed just after. Not to mention wasted time manufacturing and wasted resources with millions of rounds made with a lot more brass than would be needed for a similar capacity cartridge.

That being said it is my favourite cartridge to reload, it is very tactile and easy to handle.

I did look at the cam and the spring which seems a bit tired. The rifle is at the gunsmith's shop in Idaho for repair as it came time to say it's beyond me. Thanks all for you input and will let you know how we solved this problem.

I too like reloading and firing the cartridge.

Randy