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I was looking through some older issues of the GCA journal yesterday and in the spring issue 2005 featured rifle article it mentions that in IHC's second serial block the use of some HRA stocks. My question is are both the 3/8" and 1/2" DAS possible or only the 1/2". The featured rifle in the article has a 1/2" DAS. Thanks SteveL
In the summer 2001 edition of the GCA Journal, page 18, Scott Duff wroteQuote:
Originally Posted by SteveL
"M1 Rifles 1952 - 1957" "Part 2, International Harvester Company".
In this article Scott states "Quite a few late IHC rifles that appear to be original, have been observed equipped with H&R stocks and 1/2" DAS cartouches. All have been in the 5.1 Mil serial number range. This is another part of the IHC story that remains a mystery". His Spring 2005 article gives a bit more information based on rifles CMP was turning up.
In my opinion HRA must have delivered to IHC current production stocks which would have had the 1/2" DAS. Could some older stocks with the 3/8" DAS been included ? I would guess so, stranger things have happened concerning IHC. It will be interesting to see if anyone has knowledge of any original IHC rifles with H&R stocks with the 3/8" DAS, I have not heard of any. Maybe Wayne Bradford will read this post and supply some information.
I still want to see these stocks as they have never shown any. I think there Overtons large profile that they had started making later on. I have many of these and would like to see if they have the Overton cuts like the trigger lock up. These stocks were large on the rear just like HRA but flater on the back of the horse shoe cut. Rick B
If HRA sent stocks to IHC, they would not have had the final acceptence proof. That would have been done when the rifle was completed, inspected and accepted into government service, so I would expect to see IHC's 1/2 inch DAS. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
The way I recall hearing it, the stock blanks were stamped with some type of acceptance stamp when first received. After being finished into the completed stock the first stamp, of course, has been lost. The completed stock is then stamped with the DAS. I don't believe the DAS is an indication that a "completed rifle" has been "accepted", only that the stock has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wyatt
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W
The DAS acceptance mark means the whole rifle has been accepted as a unit on that rifle. It's the last mark applied by the Ordnance inspector indicating it's now government property.
During WWII, when an M1 passed final inspection, the stock was stamped with a cartouche to show the rifle was accepted into government service, as in WRA over GHD, S.A. over G.A.W. etc. This practice continued post war at Springfield armory until the Defense Acceptance Stamp (DAS) replaced the earlier type of cartouche in the latter part of 1953. The DAS on the side of the stock is the final acceptance mark showing that the rifle passed final inspection and was accepted by the government.
I thought I just said that.............Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wyatt
You did, I was typing my reply just as you posted your's, so I didn't see it before posting
John,Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wyatt
I thought maybe I had too many Sam Adams tonight and did a double take! Honest.. :D:super:
CMP routinely switches parts on all original lower grade rifles. So no one who pays more for a correct rifle will complain. And when they were building collector grade rifles, they took top quality stocks off rifles with metal wear and dings, to build the collector grades. I hope this guy is not making judgement calls on what he sees in the lower grade rifles.Quote:
"Quite a few late IHC rifles that appear to be original, have been observed equipped with H&R stocks and 1/2" DAS cartouches. All have been in the 5.1 Mil serial number range. This is another part of the IHC story that remains a mystery". His Spring 2005 article gives a bit more information based on rifles CMP was turning up
Incidentally, what is a "correct" or "collector grade" rifle was based on Jerry's opinion. I saw him switching out parts on the very minty IHC he took from me.
Wish I could have gotten it out the door, but it was put in the pile of collector grade rifles they were building.
I don't know if he is still working. The CMP kicked out the volunteers some years ago.
I stand corrected on this. I guess then the original question is answered, in that it would have to be only 1/2", if applied by IHC. I don't know what I was thinking, maybe barrels. Does'nt LMR and HRA barrels contain either the Ordnance emblem (crossed cannons) or the boxed DAS ? When are these acceptance stamps applied ?? Geeez, just when I thought I had this stuff figured out :help:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramboueille
I don't think so. In his Spring 2005 GCA Journal article "Featured Rifle, IHC s/n 5169890" Scott Duff stated :Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire1
"Some years ago I noticed that the CMP was finding a lot of apparently original IHC M1 rifles in the 5-million serial number range that were equipped with H&R stocks. After YEARS of adding rifles to the data base, a pattern emerged, and it became apparent that IHC did in fact manufacture a fairly large number of new rifles equipped with stocks of the H&R profile"
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W
You're correct. This was long before there were any "grades" and long before CMP knew what much was. I've seen two IHC rifles that had HRA stocks, completely disassembled one, and both rifles were near new.
Quantity is unknown but to date, about 40 of them from the 5135ooo to about 5175ooo serial ranges and not all are from CMP. After all, IHC bought receivers from HRA, didn't they? :) Forty is more than a coincidence.
as few as 9 samples randomly drawn from the population will get us into the low 90th (-ish) percentile. Over 40 should get us well into the upper 90's (if not 99%+) degree of certainty. I am sure that someone here will be better equipped to speak to this though as that was a long time ago for me ... regardless, statistically speaking it would sound something like "it is highly unlikely to be a coincidence and would instead appear to a very high degree of certainty to be significant", or soemthing like that.
Statistics always did drive me nust because quite honestly even if that is correct then what the heck did that just say ... I said I am pretty sure that I think it is possible ... really sure, ... probably, ... I think, ....
:D
But I have asked repeatedly when this discussion has come up if these stocks had the partial V notch that Overton had. I ask again as Overton was making very large stocks with a large back porch and I have this documented. I can very easily see how these could be mistaken for HRA as the back porch is huge.
I wonder more if maybe I am not hearing a answer as maybe they jumped the gun on these not noticing the had the V-notch after releasing these stocks were HRA and now no one wants to say Opps.
I only say this again for knowledge reasons. If these do turn out to be Overton large stocks a huge mistake is going to be made with folks putting HRA stocks on there 5 mill IHC's when they don’t belong. Rick B
There is no Overton notch on these stocks, and yes, they are original equipment on many IHCs in the 5.11M to 5.17M ranges. I have documented several hundred of them now, and actually own three original IHC rifles with this "HRA-style" stock. As a matter of fact, this "HRA-style" stock actually is the predominate stock in the 5.16M range.
There is a key identifier to spotting one of these stocks, but I will not name it here. It seems that most of my postwar ID work has been pirated, packaged, and is now being sold as the M1 Garand Photo Essay.
Thank you Wayne and I made mention through a third party to that so called author on info he pilfered from my discussions and he stated he got it from someone else. Funny though how he says most of it came off the net. You are one of those who know I found the O on the Overton guards and he gave no credit to that.
Isn’t what he did called Plagiarism? :thdown: Rick B
Interesting!:bash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick B
Did these HRA style stocks used by IHC have the numbers in the stock channel?
Are you kidding me Wayne, someone ripped off your reasearch data? Sorry to hear this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ihcfan55
That sucks! :mad::thdown::banghead:
JimL
There are no numbers in the channels of these HRA-style stocks. It is my personal opinion that these stocks were shipped directly from HRA to IHC. There is a reason for this, and other parts exchanges in mid-1955 (i.e. IHC DRC windage knobs on SA rifles) but I will break that fact in my IHC book. :cheers: --- GWB
Sure hope you have decided to go ahead and publish your book. Looking forward to it. Joe