Stovepiping Glock could have gotten this cop killed in gunfight

I suppose I'll stick with my Models 19, 21 and 14; they don't usually stovepipe, so why should I take any chances?

Caution: this is a newspaper report; we don't know what might have been omitted by the editors.

Regards


Milwaukee News


Milwaukee Police Department Find Problems With Its Guns

Milwaukee Police Department Has To Replace Guns




MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.


Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.


The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.


The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.


On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.


Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.


Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.


Police said stovepiping can be caused by technique depending on the position of the gun.


But, the memo to the department revealed that the problem could be with the gun itself.


"We had experienced a number of issues on the range with our issued Glock model 22, .40 caliber duty pistol magazines, which represents 45 percent of our issued weapons," said Flynn in the memo.


The chief became aware of the problem in January 2008. Since then, "Glock has replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to the Milwaukee Police Department," said Flynn in the memo.


The memo also said that the department addressed the issue with officers during a 2008 in-service firearms training session.


But, according to the memo, 300 weapons have been transitioned while 600 remain.


On Thursday night, training division personnel are exchanging the magazines in the remaining 600 firearms.


The memo went on to say that due to an abudance of caution, the academy will be operating 24 hours a day for the next three days or until the magazines have been replaced.


Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range.

Is the problem with the gun or the shooters? I can stovepipe my Glock at will by limpwristing it.

Gator, could be they just wanted new magazines and that was an easy way to get them. However, the 13 vs 6 rounds doesn't come across as accurate shooting on behalf of the officer. I will most likely get flak on that statement, example, in the heat of battle you ....... However, I don't think most officers are receiving the correct training with their firearm. You can't stand there shooting like your at the range with a bullseye target. You have to shoot accurately and while on the move.

The serious CCW carrier takes advance classes for this and they practice, practice, practice. Just my thoughts on the event. What are your thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnMOhio

Gator, could be they just wanted new magazines and that was an easy way to get them. However, the 13 vs 6 rounds doesn't come across as accurate shooting on behalf of the officer. I will most likely get flak on that statement, example, in the heat of battle you ....... However, I don't think most officers are receiving the correct training with their firearm. You can't stand there shooting like your at the range with a bullseye target. You have to shoot accurately and while on the move.

The serious CCW carrier takes advance classes for this and they practice, practice, practice. Just my thoughts on the event. What are your thoughts?

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John, pure speculation on my part, but with municipal tax revenues deeply in the dumps and ammo costs skyrocketing, perhaps some police departments are being short thrifted by the city fathers holding the purse strings.
Regards,
Lou

John is correct about the practice part. Most CHL holders do not practice sufficiently. When they do the training they do does not tend to be realistic. This is not entirely their fault. Many ranges have rules that, among other things, prevent drawing from the holster, limit shooting positions and prohibit engaging multiple targets.

The current high cost of ammunition will only make the problem worse by dramatically increasing the cost of practice, especially in some of the most popular calibers.

As an aside I should say that many Law Enforcement Officers also suffer from inadequate training, in frequency content or both because of funding problems or the unwillingness to take the officers off the street frequently enough to train adequately.

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The serious CCW carrier takes advance classes for this and they practice, practice, practice. Just my thoughts on the event.

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Very true, but unfortunately such people are a minority; and cops who train seriously are a minority too, most do no more than qualify once a year.

Lou, Art and Gator, I see your side as well. However, the purse strings have always been a factor even before this current "crises" of availablility of ammo. How many times have we read in the papers, the vast number of shots fired. If you happen to watch the TV shows showing officer and perp shoot outs, the over whelming firepower in number of rounds fired by 3 or 4 officers and surprisingly the low hit ratio. The thug knows this in advance and is willing to take his chances. There is qualifing and there is qualifing.

Also as mention, there are few and far between ranges that really teach correct combat shooting even to the police departments. A friend of mine is in the process of building a first class range in the Cleveland area and we will not have to travel to a place like Gun Site for proper instruction. Hope they get it started this summer. Most everthing is in the works and I believe financing approval is near the final stages. The location and construction plans have already been approved by the city where it is to be built and they welcomed the idea. Can't wait for completion as I expect to be one of the range officers and involved in the day to day operation.

John:

Interesting about the new range and training facility in the Cleveland
area. I live not too far away. Keep us posted on the progress or, if they have a website, let us know where we can get more information!

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"Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range."

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How many shootouts does the MPD have in a year? If the magazines were failing under range conditions then the officers should not have been sent out on the streets with faulty equipment. Especially since the replacements were already available and on hand.
If the wiper motors were failing on their squad cars, would the Department brush it off by saying "They're only known to conk out when it's raining" ??

How does a magazine cause a stovepipe?

I wouldn't think it even comes into play during the brutally-fast/high-inertia extraction process where the ejector is supposed to kick it the rest of the way out.

I do agree with several posters above. The Glock is so relatively light that limp wristing will result in the slide to have little mass to anchor itself against in moving back, and ejection jams occur since timing is thrown off.

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Originally Posted by MEHavey

How does a magazine cause a stovepipe?

I wouldn't think it even comes into play during the brutally-fast/high-inertia extraction process where the ejector is supposed to kick it the rest of the way out.

I do agree with several posters above. The Glock is so relatively light that limp wristing will result in the slide to have little mass to anchor itself against in moving back, and ejection jams occur since timing is thrown off.

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Mr. Havey,
As my first, and still only, semi-auto pistol, I acquired a Walther P1 a few years ago; it's the post-war successor to the P-38. It arrived in brand new condition but when I fired it, it quickly, repeatedly jammed. the magzines were equally "new".

The importer quickly sent me two or three replacement magazines, used ones, and, since then, I've had zero stove-piping occurances.

Regards

Louis, I think the point that Mr. Havey was trying to make is that there are different kinds of "jams" experienced by automatic pistols. One is a failure to feed which is most frequently associated with a defective magazine. Another is a "stovepipe" with is technically a failure to eject and is caused by an number of potential problems including: 1) a heavy recoil spring; 2) an underpowered cartridge; 3) a defective extractor or ejector; or 4) the shooter "limp wristing" the pistol. Like Mr. Havey, I have never encountered a defective magazine that caused a "stovepipe". That's not to say that I've seen every problem related to pistol malfunctions, however. I do wonder if the writer was somewhat unfamilar with firearm related terminolgy and mistakenly refered to a failure to feed "jam" as a "stovepipe". Rick

>
> writer was somewhat unfamilar ...mistakenly refered to
> a failure to feed "jam" as a "stovepipe"...
>

Like you, that's the only explanation I could think of Rick.
Other thoughts out there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick Gushman

Louis, I think the point that Mr. Havey was trying to make is that there are different kinds of "jams" experienced by automatic pistols. One is a failure to feed which is most frequently associated with a defective magazine. Another is a "stovepipe" with is technically a failure to eject and is caused by an number of potential problems including: 1) a heavy recoil spring; 2) an underpowered cartridge; 3) a defective extractor or ejector; or 4) the shooter "limp wristing" the pistol. Like Mr. Havey, I have never encountered a defective magazine that caused a "stovepipe". That's not to say that I've seen every problem related to pistol malfunctions, however. I do wonder if the writer was somewhat unfamilar with firearm related terminolgy and mistakenly refered to a failure to feed "jam" as a "stovepipe". Rick

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Thanks for responding. I should have mentioned that all of those jams included stovepiping. For a revolver guy like me, it was very unexpected and frustrating; my revolvers always go Bang! courtesy of Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson.
Regards,