Sure looks like USMC camo there in that fortified foxhole?!?!
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Sure looks like USMC camo there in that fortified foxhole?!?!
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Paras maybe, but not Marines.
They are US Army camouflage fatigues. Used in the ETO in Normandy and for about 6-7 weeks afterwards. Some of the units that used them in the ETO were the 41st Armd Inf/48th Medical Battalion/17th Engineers and the 82nd Recon of the 2nd armored and the 30th Infantry. Some Army units who wore them in the PTO, were the 6th Infantry, 32nd Infantry, 40th and 43rd Infantry Divs. Ray
Gen. Marshall was not fond of the Marines and their pubilicty Dept. He thought they got more then their share of credit in WW1. He would not allow them in the ETO, so the story goes.
Have no idea whether correct or not, but read that the camo looked too much like the German camo, and was recalled.
Sgt. Saunders (whose 1928 Thompson carried 3 million bullets in a 30 round clip and he NEVER needed to reload) always wore a camoflage cover on his helmet - I thought it was a Marine cover (may have been in real life), and never understood how he came by it. But at least now I know that it was "issue"... Of course, Saunders wore it through out the 5 years of the show (never getting out of France), and he must have missed the "recall" order.
Thanks for clearing up one of the mysteries of my youth!
I know there's an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor over the bar here but...:beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
George C Marshall's personal likes and dislikes had little, if anything, to do with where the USMC was employed.
Two of the reasons the USMC wasn't in the ETO were it was too small and it wasn't organized, trained, or equipped for the type of operations conducted in the ETO.
The entire Marine Corps only fielded six infantry divisions. These divisions were light on anti-armor capability, long distance mobility, and long term combat sustainability. They conducted primarily short duration amphibious assaults on isolated enemy outposts to seize bases for strategic operations conducted by the Navy and Air Force.
The US Army fielded 42 infantry, 15 armored, and 4 airborne divisions in the ETO. Plus numerous separate infantry regiments, armor, cavalry, artillery, and tank destroyer battalions. All but the unreinforced airborne divisions had heavy organic anti-armor and transport making them suited to the long distance mobile warfare of the ETO. Combat in the ETO was characterized by large scale long duration operations intended to destroy the german armed forces and occupy the enemy's homeland.
A third reason is without the Marines the Navy would have been pretty much unable to carry the war to the japs. Or it would have had to rely on the Army to seize the necessary bases. It simply made sense, especially for the Navy, to keep all the USMC in the PTO where it could do the most good.
Maury
PS - You may be thinking of Doug MacArthur who did try to screw Marines every chance he got.
My understanding is that there were indeed a few Marines present for the landing at Normandy but their role was purely as advisors and trainers on amphibious warfare. I once dated the daughter of a Marine who said her father was there watching the initial landings while aboard a ship. The Marines were and are the U.S. experts on amphibious warfare.
In 1944 my dad's U.S. Army infantry division was trained by the USMC at Coronado on amphibious techniques. The division was in California about to depart for the Pacific when the Germans attacked in the Ardennes and they went to the European Theater instead. Right after the German surrender they were immediately sent back to the U.S. and they were loading on ships in Seattle when the atomic bombs were dropped. They were part of the occupation force in Japan.
Also, doctrinal differences often made a joint Army-Marine command HIGHLY problematic. The Marines had a "hell-for-leather" assault mentality that often got a lot of good troops killed...trading blood for time. The Army tended to take the "longer view" and assaulted in a more systematic, economical, but more protracted manner. Neither was wrong, but reflected differing doctrines for differing roles. It came to a head on Saipan where Gen. Howland "Howling Mad" Smith USMC couldn't get the Army units attached to his battle force to attack at the same pace as the Marines on their flanks, opening a hole that the Japanese exploited with near disastrous results. Smith vowed he would NEVER command a joint Army-Marine Force again....and with the Army's hearty approval, never did! Smith commanded the all-Marine assault on Iwo Jima....and Gen. Simon Bolivar Buckner USA, commanded the joint Army-Marine assault on Okinawa.
At the end of the day, it was probably a case of using the right tools for the job at hand....you don't hitch a race-horse to a plow!
Most likely any marines that were present during landings in the ETO were the regular ship board garrisioned marines that were stationed on the navy ships that were there. They may have assisted in some way but their main duty was shipboard, Ray
I said the "so the story goes", and no I did not read it about Mac. True or not its a funny story. Now the Marine commender in Korea, name was Smith (Howlin mad?), held his men back and the the Army was trying to get him to move faster. Turned out he was right cause the Chinese hit them all with a fury. His troops suffered the least, the Army the most. That was Chosen, when the Chinese first came in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Nope! Lt. Gen Holland "Howlin' Mad" Smith retired from the Corps on May 5, 1946 (with a "graveyard" promotion to General). He died in San Diego, CA, Jan. 12, 1967 at the age of 84.
You are thinking of Maj.Gen. Oliver P. Smith who commanded the 1st Marine Div. in Korea.
In the old Marine Corps museum at Quantico (next door to Little Hall) there was a Nazi battle flag that was captured by the ship's Marine detachment from (I think) the USS North Carolina. The ship's MarDet staged an amphibious landing on the island fort in the harbor at Marseilles, capturing the fort immediately prior to the invasion of Southern France by Gen. Patch's 7th Army.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
When I was maint. supervisor at last job I had,made friends with a fellow gun collector who was a Field Eng. rep. from Mono Group. LTD. for Moyno Pump Co.,one day one of the companys engineers showed up at work with a new car,when my friend pulled in lot,he wondered who car belongs to,license plate carried Purple Heart,P.O.W.,USMC and Europe WWll on it,my friend is ex WWll Marine,he figured some "wanna be's car who didn't know where Marines fought",when he got in office he asked who had new car,guy who spoke up was fellow worker/friend of his,held his tongue cause guy was retiring in few months,guy offered friend some eng. manuals,when friend went to pick them up he also gave him a box USMC magazines,couple weeks later friend was thumbing thru mags and found article with pic of reunion group of people who were dropped behind enemy lines for espionage,sabotage and tracking German supply/troop movements,people in group were from all service branches,few civies also,they were picked because they had special skill required,and there was a picture of his co-worker,Sgt.USMC,spent several mths. behind enemy lines,then he was captured,14 mths. German POW camp,there was a movie loosely based on this group titled "13 Rue Madelane",starring James Cagney,friend made copy of article/picture for me,I'd like to post it if I can find it,got awful lot of stuff packed away and didn't mark the boxes.
RayP.
WOW, thanks!!
I guess you learn something new all the time, I had never knew that USA ever wore cammy's in WWII.
Dan
Just on Vic Morrow's helmet. :)
The camouflage overalls were only worn for a short time. Supposedly they looked too much like the German stuff.
I have read that small parties of Marines were present at Normandy as security for the beachmasters.
There is a great booklet in the Marines in WWII Commerative Series by Lt Col Harry Edwards called "A Different War: Marines in Europe and North Africa". Sheds some light on Marine Corps activity in the ETO.
My Dad was with the 5th Marine Defense Battalion, attached to the 1st Marine Provisional Brigade that sat in Iceland from June 1941 to March 1942.
They were originally slated for the Azores but went to Iceland instead. I don't know what the Azores climate was but my Dad disliked Iceland. Did not eat mutton for the rest of his life. Blamed the diet for poor dental health and hair loss, no fresh vegies or vitamin supplements in those days. He was able to wear the European Campaign Ribbon on his blouse. Lost the rest of his hair after being scared ****less at Tarawa. God bless them All.
Bob
In the 1960s L.L. Bean catalogs used to say that the Marines in Iceland wore its Maine Hunting Shoes specially purchased off the shelf because of the climate there. They're the leather-top, rubber-bottom kind of boot.
First time I heard about LL Bean boots, but I also read that their officers took whatever heavy winter civilian coats were available in Charleston when they shipped out.
Dad came home with a big furry Marine green and brown fur winter hat that was worn by the China Marines. He always wore it shoveling snow in the 50's.
Bob
When the Rangers were trapped at Pointe du Hoc (they accomplished their mission, but were cut off from the main US forces at Omaha Beach for 2-3 days) one Marine officer afloat wanted to reinforce them with the shipboard detachment of USS Texas.
Omar Bradley, personally, shot it down; he didn't want to see any headlines reading "US Army rescued by Marines!"
No Marines were put ashore on D-Day, and I think few thereafter.
The tale about the Marine behind enemy lines sounds like Peter Ortiz. "Wild Bill" Donovan's OSS was a law unto itself (seeing as how Donovan was an old classmate and friend of some guy working out of a wheelchair in an Oval Office) and had free rein to pick anyone it chose. It got a few Marines. Peter Ortiz was, apparently, a good operative and USMC Captain; he did drop behind enemy lines and was captured by the Germans, surviving months not in a PoW camp but concentration camp. [Hitler had decreed that all "commandos" and similar special operatives be executed on capture; the German officers in the field decided that sending them to a concentration & labor camp was the most efficient way to do so. A fair number of British captured operatives survived such ordeals.]