1916 Shortened SMLE Enfield?

Can anyone shed any light on this series of shortened SMLE rifles. This particular example is an Enfield Mk3 dated 1916 so not from the Lithgow stable. It is housed at the Weapons collection at Warminster. There is no signs of true 'lightening' as such, just shortened although as if to 'balance ' the rifle, the butt is slimmed right down front to rear as per the No5 style. But alas, nothing else visible. The backsight slide has been recalibrated but only to 800. Alongside is a 2 foot steel rule for sizing.

Just for interest, everything up to the band is standard and the band sling loop is positioned exactly where the nose cap loop would be. The nose cap sits back against the band There is no cut-and-shut bodginess (or bubba-ing in wild colonial language) or rough dodgy joints........................ Recoils like a No5 too

Any ideas Forumers? :beerchug:

I have no idea where that could come from but I'm thinking that next time I find a smle with a bubba'ed, cut-down rifle...

I don't know, I just find the look of that rifle interesting...

Lou

The front end looks like the prototype Australian "shortened and lightened", which had 18.2" barrels with the band very close to the nose cap. The standard looking SMLE rear sight is different, though.

It may be an example of "product development". Skennerton, in "The Lee Enfield", 2007, states "A similar conversion had already been effected in Britain as the basic design was merely a shortened, full-stocked No.1 rifle..........their British counterparts utilised the original bed backsight, making the sight radius even shorter" (page 347)

I have seen a Lithgow drawing that shows the 18.2" Australian version as "Rifle, .303, Intermediate" and detailing a comparison for length with a standard No.1. This also shows a different rearsight from the trials versions. There exists a separate drawing for the rear sight components as "Sight, Trial, for Special Cut-Down Rifle, 20 1/4" Barrel".

So, it is likely to be a sample of "3D thinking" along the way to the No.5.

Interesting..
How is the crown on the muzzle cut? Is it a proper job or just cut flat like in a lathe?
The photo of the plug for the inner band screw looks a tad rough. Is that just the photo?

The Lithgow Shortened Lightened rifles were a production run of 100 "Intermediate Length" rifles with 20.4" barrel. Before these, some of the tradesmen at the factory were tasked with hand making rifles to submit for consideration. There were a few different lengths made. Of these, two basic "styles" were selected and a prototype run of about ten each "Shortened Lightened Short Rifles" (18" barrel) and "Shortened Lightened Intermediate Rifles" (20.2" barrel) were done. The intermediate length was selected and a hundred were made with matching bayonets, serialled XP1 to XP100.

One thing I can assure you of, all the trademens examples, prototypes and the 100 trial XP rifles had receiver mounted rear sights of some type. This was a design stipulation right from the start.

Peter, I'd assume if the rifle there was an official conversion or experimentation done in England, there would be at least one in the Pattern Room.
The only thing I could suggest, is the longer it's been in Warminster locked away, the less likely it is a "bubba". After all, he hasn't been making the ultra rare "Tanker Carbine" for that long!

Here's a couple of pics from the back room and displays at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum....

First pic is a very short rifle, one of the original handmade tradesman's rifles.
Second pic I think is one of the finished XP rifles (intermediate)
Third pic is the rack again- this time look at the second last rifle on the first rack- definately one of the "Short" prototypes.
Fourth pic is in the display- A no5, an S&L prototype, and an S&L (intermediate) XP with bayonet and a No6 at the bottom.

For some additional background color and some more tangental research information building upon Son's post .....

With thanks to Advisory Panel members Lance and Wheaty, check the Australia - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened & Lightened Rifle - Serial XP53 "Experimental" (click here) .....

There's also an interesting associated thread in our Commercial Auction and Sale "Gossip" (click here) forum titled Reference Thread - Australian Arms Auctions - May 4th, 2008 (click here) .

This thread contains a post regarding one of these rifles (Serial XP45) that sold at the Australian Arms Auctions on May 4th, 2008 for $7,000 AUSD.

Regards,
Badger

I know a UK RFD who has several SMLEs like this. He said they were conversions made for a school cadet force in the South East. They were only intended as drill rifles for junior cadets, and not to be fired. I think it was one of the big schools established for servicemens' kids, where the kids of all ages wore a sort of uniform and did cadet drill. I gather the rifles were all converted in the 1920s or thereabout, and were private school property rather than War Office issue.

I can just about imagine feeling the recoil from one of the shortests...

Lou

The remarked 800yd backsight on your rifle certainly seems to support work done to duplicate the No.5 era. If it was for a boy's school and not to be fired--why remark sights?

I have the short ones illustrated by Skennerton. Skennerton, Alley and I always felt they were authentic given the sources where Alley obtained them.

To complete the record, in the 1970's I saw short barrelled No.1s in Canada --full British with new Indian made/proofed short barrels. We were told they were modified for easy of use by mounted troops--tanks/vehicles as there weren't enough smgs available. Also in the mid 90's, SARCO was selling shortened No.1s. I saw 8 at one time there. I suspect they were shortened by Century Arms as they were of the same markings/condition as the surplus Century was selling at the same time.

Paul,

Thanks so much for that information. That is more than is available in the usual texts.

Mine is buried in the back of the safe, so the following is from a CRS-cursed memory. It is one of the 21 1/4" barrel models, all matching, made by S.S.A., re-barrelled in the early 1940's and bearing Canadian government ownership marks. The inletting for the nose-cap appears professionally done, as does the re-crowning of the muzzle. The butt is stamped, "AUS" and something else I can't remember without pulling it out, but I do remember it was a different marking than those pictured in Skennerton's books.

Two or three years before I bought it, at the Phoenix gun show with the friend who owned it at the time, we saw another, with identical butt markings to this one, so it wasn't a "one-off". When I discussed it with Ian he thought it was probably legit, but done by the trade, in Britain, during the war.

Always, in the back of my mind, is the hauntingly nagging thought, is this just perhaps a much earlier version of the infamous, "Greek Jungle Carbine"? No offense, Goo!

Guess I will have to dig it out and take some pix.

Regards,

Terry

Son,

Forgot to mention, please don't assume that the Pattern Room collection has one of everything ever officially made in the Mother Country. I'm sure I am not the only collector that has personal proof that dear old Herb didn't live long enough to get it all, bless him.

Terry

A couple of years ago in the news letter of LERA (Dispaches), there was a short article reprinted about an officer in the trenches who shortened a couple of SMLEs to 12" barrel length for use in trench raiding and "bombing" parties. I don't have my copy handy at the moment because I'm at work so I can't tell you the guy's name. The rear sights were removed and a notch filed in the charger bridge to act as a sight, and the fore-end was shortened and then reprofiled to reattach the nosecap so that a "sword" could still be fitted.
He and another officer tested them at 100yds and he said that accuracy was acceptable. I think he also said he submitted the modification for consideration, but that the Americans arrived with their "sawn off shotguns" and the idea went no further.
I've often wondered what such a rifle would handle like, but never wondered enough to take a hacksaw to my SMLE!

Just a couple of observations on the subject. The muzle is properly crowned, rounded as per usual and not a quick bubba hacksaw job. However, the muzzle does protrude about .025 - .030" further that you'd normally expect but doesn't foul a bayonet. But so does one of our Mk5s protrude about the same too. The fore-end patch patch (just visible in the pic) looks a bit rough but it's perfect in real life and the glue LOOKS to be the old animal bone stuff. There is no internal band there obviously and there IS a fore-end stud and spring under the nose cap too!

No bodgy bubba type work and visually, you have to do a double take to a) note that it is shortened and b) where exactly it is shortened. Your comments will all be recorded in the weapon file...........now all being computerised!

Harry, I can just imagine the amount of flame from such a short barrel! Even if you missed, you would incinerate the german!;)

I built one very similar about 16-18 years ago. The worst part was cutting the taper on the barrel for the front sight base without removing the barrel from the action! (Ended up doing it on a tool and cutter grinder with a short headstock.) Shoots flat base bullets ok, but boat-tails every one keyhole in an 8" - 10" pattern at 100 yards. Handles nicely and recoil isn't all that bad.

I thought that the SMLE foresight base/diameter was parallel, prevented from rotating by the key and keyway. It could be soft soldered in place, as is the L42

Peter, I had assumed that the front sight seat area was parallel, until I got my sticky paws on a barrel drawing.

Scanner is currently US, so I am stuck with text. The drawing is : A.I.D. 1318A, circa, I believe 1938. Sheet 2 of 4 has the goods.

Referring to the front sight base: "Taper of barrel hole, .008 per inch. decrease. Hole to be reamed out to suit barrel when assembling."

Referring to the barrel, it simply shows nominal diameter at 7 inch intervals. Interestingly, the keyway is shown as having a .004" per inch taper.

And just for good measure, the keyway on the barrel and front sight block band are offset .015" to the left, as are the sight block itself and the ears on the nosecap.

The .015" offset may have had something to do with compensating for the effect on the bullet of the left hand twist rifling and / or torque during bullet travel in the barrel.

The drawing also shows no sign of a slot for the fixing pin. I suspect that this was jig drilled once the sight bed was in the correct place. The key, however, is shown with a radiused slot for the pin.

It would be interesting to see what the No4 drawings show in the same region.

Cheers,
Bruce

Indeed, the keyway is parallel to the O.D., near as I could figure. Never did recalibrate the sight markings, but Mk VII ball matched the existing markings to 300 yards, maybe due to the shorter sight radius making up for the lost velocity.

There was one sold from Queensland from an online site recently. It still had the yellow cadet paint on the nose cap. Dont remember what maker.

Drool.

In the Imperial War Museum Review No.6, pages 4-15 is an article by Bryn Hammond - Professionals and specialists: military mining on the Western Front. It describes combat underground and a cut-down version of the .303 rifle is mentioned. Note 54 refers: A rifle of this type is illustrated in the Visit Diary of First Army Controller of Mines. PRO WO158-137. So if someone fancies a visit to Kew to find out more...!

I know that the mines and tunnels were noisy places, especially if you were inside one when it exploded, but I would doubt whether the cut down miners rifles were anything better than exactly that.... cut down rifles devoid of any finesse!

As for firing a rifle inside the confines of a tunnel, then let me tell you of my experience. I was the snipers Armourer and a couple of us, including an Instrument Tech Sergeant called Tony Bowman were adjusting the electronic folding targetry at a FIBUA (a mock village, made for house to house clearing and fighting...) and trying to get a window electric target to work. There was a sniper pair (a Gurkha and a Welch Guardsman) in the room we were working in. They were sat in a hide, built behind some old wardrobes and curtains etc etc. I had sorted out a bit of wiring and had the target in a window flicking up and down a few times when the Gurkha told me to do it a few more times as they were observing it. So I did, making it operate as though 'he' was peeping through the window. All of a sudden the baxxxxx opened fire at it. I was laying on the floor, in front of them, at the electronic control box with Tony Bowman, AVO multimeter in hand and the flash and roar of the L42 being fired in the enclosed room with just a window open was absolutely horrendous. It blew the multimeter out of our hands, we dropped the loose wiring, the target disappeared (as it would, he'd hit it.....) and it blew our ears out. We were deaf for days.

Tony Bowman went ballistic too and told the pair what a shower of sxxxx they were but I don't think they took any notice, They'd got their score and a good hit too.

As for firing one in the tunnels..... only once!

Not to argue, but those WW1 tunnels were quiet places, not noisy. Both sides had listeners to detect the other side's tunnels. Make a lot of noise digging, and you could suddenly find a camouflet destroying your tunnel and terminating your military career.

I just stumbled upon your thread, since I was thinking about building a 16.25" barreled copy of the shortened SMLE mentioned somewhere in Skennerton's book on the Enfield. From what I remember, they were salvaged rifles with barrels cut down to 12" or so and a simply 'v' notch on the front receiver ring.

I gather the article you mentioned has no further information on this shortened SMLE?

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Originally Posted by Story

I just stumbled upon your thread, since I was thinking about building a 16.25" barreled copy of the shortened SMLE mentioned somewhere in Skennerton's book on the Enfield. From what I remember, they were salvaged rifles with barrels cut down to 12" or so and a simply 'v' notch on the front receiver ring.

I gather the article you mentioned has no further information on this shortened SMLE?

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Check the England MKL ..... :)

Besides the article on the experimental 1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened Lightened Rifle (Mfg by SAF Lithgow) in the Australia MKL, there's also another excellent article by Terry Hawker on the Enfield Shortened No. 1 Mk III* Rifle.

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by Terry Hawker

Son,

Forgot to mention, please don't assume that the Pattern Room collection has one of everything ever officially made in the Mother Country. I'm sure I am not the only collector that has personal proof that dear old Herb didn't live long enough to get it all, bless him.

Terry

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Amen to that. Herb told me that the sources for the Pattern Room were donations from the using service after they were done with evaluations, captured items (when we were there, they were just sorting out some items sent in by Desert Storm troops, transfers from Police department siezed items and items surrendered during the various amnesties. He stated he did have a small budget for direct purchases but I gathered it was a paperwork nightmare. He did show me a beautiful Dara made NO.1 Mk1 that looked so good--the only klinker was the set screw on the rear sight was engraved in place, not real. My observations were that the Pattern Room had few examples of normal production arms--only the odd ball stuff.

From Skennerton's THE LEE ENFIELD

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During the trench fighting of the Great War, some SMLE rifles were cut down for use by the Tunnelling Companis. In 'Villiers-Stuart Goes to War', Brigadier-General W.D. Villier-Stuart in 1915 raised and took the 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade to France until they virtually ceased to exist as a fighting Regiment in September of 1915 because of the large number of casualties.

Villiers-Stuart records ...'when last in 'Y' Wood sector [Ypres] I had seen that the bombers were very much hampered by their rifles. I thought a lot about it and finally took a salvaged rifle along to the Field Ordnance repair shop and got a conductor to cut it down to a 12-inch barrel, re-braze the foresight block and sight to the muzzle of that, and remove the backsight and bed altogether, cutting a 'V' in the bridge charger guide to replace it (the upper sling swivel was discarded and the lower band shifted back to take a sling swivel)'.

'This made a very good close-quarter weapon and the nose cap being repositioned on the shortened fore-end meant that a sword (bayonet) could be fixed. I then had ten more made and issued them to Officers for testing. We tried them on teh butts and found them very accurate to 100 yards and ma sure they would ahve been good at two hundred yards as well.'

In the event, these shortened rifles were not developed any further because Villiers-Stuart states that, 'The American sawn-off shotgun* came along and was better for close-quarter fighting'.

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* Presumably, the 12 gauge Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun.

This would be a fun conversion to make, with a SMLE that had a worn-down muzzle. Laws in the US would require it to have a 16 1/2" barrel, though.

Fourth picture is hard to see markings. Do you have it focused?

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Originally Posted by Chrono_ZX

Fourth picture is hard to see markings. Do you have it focused?

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You better have a look at the date of the post and thread...2009. Almost a nine year old thread... Some of those guys aren't here anymore. That's why we don't dredge up old threads...usually.

Amen... ;)

Thread closed as it's almost as old as I am ... :lol:

Regards,
Doug

Edited to update with explanation ... ;)

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