Subcontracted Parts / Markings

duggaboy requested some information concerning a bolt for an 03A3 Smith-Corona. He identified his rifles bolt was marked with a "CC". I answered that it was a rebuild part not a SC part. No one corrected me,but I got an email suggesting I do a little homework:(

I felt pretty sure I was correct with my answer, but looking in "Brophy" pg. 191 I found that "CC" was Chrysler Corp. and that "CCT" was Commercial Controls Corp. I looked through my notes,which come from the forum, and found several post agreed with me that "CC" was Commerical Controls. Canfields book " '03 SPRINGFIELD SERVICE RIFLE" states that it is Commerical Controls. Is Brophy in error? :sos:

Just would like to make sure. :banghead:

john

Brophy is in error - the part indicates manufacture by Commericial Controls.

Poyer and (I believe) Harrison) repeated the error by quoting that fact from Brophy.

Commerical Controls, no doubt. Sealed packages of bolts still around (I have 2!). Just shows how difficult it is to get rid of bogus information. I have heard Brophy had no intention of including the M1903-A3 in his book. Only did so at the urging of his friends. Problem was he disliked the 03-A3.

And, as I was told, not too wild about the RIA, either.

Quote:

---

I have heard Brophy had no intention of including the M1903-A3 in his book. Only did so at the urging of his friends. Problem was he disliked the 03-A3.

---

Bill Brophy was a close friend and never expressed that point of view to me. The reason he made several identification mistakes is he (and everybody else at the time) used a government publication which was not designed to identify parts markings.

You can read the whole explanation on my page of myths:

Bill Ricca's Page of Myths

Interesting - thanks for bringing that up. You hear that all the time. Your webpage was also worth looking at.

Bill-are you saying Brophy liked the 03-A3? I have heard the exact opposite from "insiders". People whom I respect. Problem is, when an authority prints bogus infomation, it sticks around for decades. People routinely ask about "CC" bolts. Add to that Brophy isn't around to publish an updated book. A pity, as his book is the "bible". No question about that.

Brophy was like a father to me. He hung out at my table at the Glastonbury shows, gave me a tour of Marlin, and we were in constant communications. I even was a guest at his house and slept over. I gave him several items for a museum at Marlin due to his giving me many experimental US GI items that were developed but never adopted.

All I am saying is he never once told me he hated the 03A3 or A4. He was a lover of the Krag and 03, and never once bad mouthed the later guns.

Maybe others got a different story, but I never heard it. I think I spent as much time with him as most others.

My favorite Brophy story was his purchase of a 30-03 rod bayonet rifle. He went into the Phila Naval Depot where 03's were being sold to the public. The year was circa 1952 or 53. He was taking notes as to parts markings, serial numbers, and a guy came over to him and the conversation went something like this:

"You know something about those rifles?"

Yes, a little bit

"Well we have a rifle inside that we cannot sell because no ammunition fits it".

Let me see it.

They went into the back room and there it was, an unaltered, like new 30-03.

Brophy told the guy "Put it outside and I will purchase it. I have a friend who has this ammunition and I will give it to him as a present"

He bought it for $16.00 and change.

Hey Bill,

You are very lucky to have spent time with the first '03 professor. Thanks for the story.

Do you know where that rifle is today and who has it?

By the way, Remington handguard I recently purchased from you is perfect and I lucked out in matching it to the color of my stock.

Thanks and regards,

Lancebear

After Bill died, his collection was scattered out within the industry. I know the late Pete Cardone purchased a quantity of his rifles, but who got what I do not know.

heres some of the contractors for 1903 and A3 that i can think of off the tope of my head.
H Hadley tool
RS Roller smith
RP Rochester products.
BP Brown products
HO Hoover
CC commecial controls
OL Onita Ltd
G Gothom steel..
M Milton Bradley.
E American Billiard and Bowling.
K Keystone.
BS Brown and sharpe
8 Accross manufacturing.
S in circle Sedgley, not US, but commonly installed on 1903,s
RIA Rock island.
SA Springfield
R Remington
X Smith Corona
S smith corona extractors.
thats all i can think of off the top of my head, im sure you can think of a few more.
makers of triggers, cocking rods, stocks, handguards, springs, bolts, extractors. front and rear sights. ect..

BP was Bay Products which produced Bolt Sleeves from 6/43 thru 4/44.

As far as I know HO has not been proven to be Hoover. That is one of those markings from the Supply Bulletin 9-35 that has inaccuracies when dealing with part markings.

thanks, ill add that to my notes.
i have a Hoover ballbearing box someplace, burried in my junk..
its not a box for bolt bodies, it was for ord, tooling of somesort.
still ya gotta admit, not a bad list for off the top of my head, if i dug out my box O parts, id bet i can find more.
heck, i have Carbine, 1911, BAR, Shotgun, and 03 new bits in the packages still.
nothing fancy, but they are neet. i have enough Remington Rand firing pin stops to choke a small horse, and id bet i have some 20,000 sight windage screws for A3,s
some parts i havent figured out yet, likely 1928SMG parts, as they came with a few parts kits i picked up.
if i find the time, ill look and see if i can find em, maybe you can help figure out what they are.

just an add, sorry, these arent for sale guys, i figured id through that in, before i get flooded with emails....
in the carbine bits, i have a new in the package flip sight assembly, from an IP carbine, not a repro, new, crispy and nice...im a tease...

I recommend you never post pictures of the carbine parts in the wrap. With all the fakes going on, somebody will download your picture and use it to sell fakes.

good idea..if i do, ill make sure to put a logo or something to that effect, accross the picture.
iv been offered stupid money for the flip sight,
most of the stuff i have is pins, springs, ect, nothing fancy, but someday they will be gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Ricca

BP was Bay Products which produced Bolt Sleeves from 6/43 thru 4/44.

As far as I know HO has not been proven to be Hoover. That is one of those markings from the Supply Bulletin 9-35 that has inaccuracies when dealing with part markings.

---

Bill,

The "HO" marking on some WWII Springfield bolts is the steel lot code. And I'm reasonably convinced that it does indeed stand for the Hoover Ball and Bearing Co. As I point out in my bolt steel lot code charts, bearing companies have their own steel mills to make the fine high-grade steel required for bearings. I believe that Hoover was given a contract to supply steel forgings for making bolts to Springfield Armory.

I have documentary proof that the "BF" marking on some WWII Springfield bolts identifies the raw forging as having come from the Bonney Forge and Tool Co. Like bearing companies, tool companies also have their own steel mills.

Please note in the foregoing that "HO" and "BF" are steel lot code markings and identify the supplier of the steel to Springfield Armory. These markings were applied by Springfield Armory, NOT Hoover or Bonney Forge. And the forgings they supplied were rough unfinished parts, NOT finished parts.

J.B.