Austrian sporterized M1903?

A gentleman on another forum sent me some pictures of a beautiful sporterized M1903 which his brother picked up in Germany after World War II "circumstances unknown". The serial number is covered by the scope, but the gentleman believes it to be a 7-digit. The barrel is a SA 2-30. He speculated that it might have been a captured M1903 but I thought possibly a M1903 that had been made up for another American immediately after World War II. There were plenty of out-of-work German/Austrian craftsmen around after WWII who would have been glad to do the job for a song.

I wondered if anyone might be able to fill in any more of the details for him (and me).

I'll let him do the rest of the describing:

I have a sporterized M1903 that was given to my father in about 1949. It was customized in Austria and has a K. Kahles Wien H 4x60 scope with a quick-release claw mount.

As you may know, the Mauthausen concentration camp was near Linz. Among the operations there was a Steyr Daimler Puch factory that produced K98 rifles to a high standard, mostly for the SS and Gestapo. The Kahles H/4x60 scope was used on the sniper version of the K98 rifle.

That area was a hotbed of activity at the end of the war and right after. The Danube, which formed one of the demarcation lines between East and West Germany, runs right through Linz. The OSS had lots of folks around there at war's end. The 79th and 371st Fighter Groups were stationed at Horsching Air Base, near Linz, as part of the occupation forces. So there were lots of Americans who might have had the rifle made, as well.

The scope has no serial number, which was typical for military hardware made by Karl Kahles. Besides, the Kahles factory was destroyed by bombs in 1945 along with most of their records. The H/4x60 scopes were made from 1939 and 1948. I have been in contact with a Kahles representative but he has not been very helpful.

My half brother acquired the rifle in Germany after the war, circumstances unknown. It might have been won in a card or craps game or bought in a pawn shop.

Some notes regarding the rifle:
There are S stamps on the trigger assembly and the trigger guard/magazine assemble next to the floor plate release mechanism.
Under the stock, there are stamps on the barrel of D 5 and a separate 7.
On the bottom of the receiver is stamped N S and below that J 100.
One can clearly see Springfield through the openings of the forward scope mount but only the last of the serial numbers (9) is visible.
As I mentioned, there is an ordnance bomb and 44 stamped on the inside of the floor plate.
There are no marks on the bolt.
They polished up the visible parts of the receiver and blued the barrel.
It originally had a sling, which my father did not like, but it was removed and has been lost. I would be interested in finding a correct sling and attaching hardware.

The scope has a leather carrying case on which someone wrote "Patsy Domico, Linz Austria, September 18, 1948. The stock is nicely done!


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Rick - You may be looking for Patsy Domico - White Male - b/1925 - Native state WVA (Fairmount??) - Enlisted Dec 17,1945 (record says 1 year) - Regular Army (??) - enlisted at Camp Beale, Calif. (ASAAF Base? in 1945?).

I found a obit for a Louie "Scoogan" Domico of Fairmount, WVA which lists a Patsy "Buck" Domico as a sibling but I wasn't able to pull up the full obit as yet. I'll fuss around with it some more. "Scoogan and Buck" are apparently nicknames as no middle names were observed.

Odd enough name and the time frame kinda fits..

Mike Haas

Thanks for the tip, Mike. Interestingly, I went to school with a large family of Domicos in Spokane WA.

I do not know the situation in Germany, but in Japan an american officer could purchase "surplus" American rifles from local depot. I have a Remington 03 with the papers showing sale to an AF Captain for the grand total of $20.00.

This officer then had the rifle sporterized by a local Japanese "gunsmith" who did a credible job of building a stock, removing the rear sight sleeve, and adding an open sight mounted to the barrel by a dovetail.

Sight, buttplate, etc were all US made obtained from the local PBX.

I bought the rifle from the Captain in about 1967 for the same $20.00. He told me that what he did was fairly common then.

I suspect the rifle shown here had somewhat of a similiar history.

I agree with Bill H. on this. I knew several NCO's who had lovely '03's and K98's built into German-style hunting rifles. The work was uniformly superb and done very cheap. I think immediately after the war a carton of US cigarettes was worth $200.00 on the black market. So really, small cash and smokes was all you needed.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

I agree with Bill H. on this. I knew several NCO's who had lovely '03's and K98's built into German-style hunting rifles. The work was uniformly superb and done very cheap. I think immediately after the war a carton of US cigarettes was worth $200.00 on the black market. So really, small cash and smokes was all you needed.

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Calif and Bill H

I agree that the practice ocurred and the rifle RTL posted is an excellant example of those events. I'd buy a documented one in a heartbeat.

"Key Words" being "documented". I suspect this one may "repeat may" be one that can be documented..:dunno::dunno:

Mike Haas

I believe this one has been in the family and the gentleman just wants to research it a bit. I also thought it might have been from just after the end of WWII, as well.

I have seen a ~VE day issue of that GI magazine that was styled like LIFE and it had an article about taking guns back. The article argued that the M-1 was too heavy for hunting, and the Carbine was too weak. It suggested taking back an 03 or captured M-98.

No way to tell who the maker was. After the war the German and Austrian gunsmiths could only work on ailed personal guns. They could neither own or work on any other guns, this was true until 1952 when Germans were again allowed to own firearms. IMO most of the post war German 1903 conversions are dismal at best, this one is above average. Wien is Vienna. The German 1903's before the war are a different thing altogether, they made some fine custom sporters.

Hello All,
I am the owner of the sporter pictured above. Many thanks to Rick for bringing this here, to Mike Haas for looking into the name and to all who have posted regarding the rifle, especially Michael Petrov. I am new to collectors' forums but have been around and owned guns all my life. However, I no longer hunt and have not had the opportunity to shoot in a long time. Hope to change that.
As I have said, this rifle belonged to my dad. He was not a collector but used the gun for deer hunting and it saw a fair amount of use. I fired it many times in my youth - it has one hellova recoil. I was appalled, even at my young age, when Dad took a points file to the rear, leaf sight cuz it was "shootin' high" . The scope was always a problem because the recoil knocked it out of focus and the scope position is so high and eye relief is so short that he got a little crescent shaped cut above the eye when throwing up to shoot fast once. That was the end of that.
I realize, after looking around, that it is a fairly run-of-the-mill sporter which gets little respect from afficionados. But I like it. I was hoping to be able to identify the gun maker but, unless the little marks on the sight collar are recognized by someone, that's not likely. There is a slight possibility that it is pre Pearl Harbor. The Kahles H/4x60 scope, which has no serial number, was manufactured between 1939 and 1948. I believe, now, that Patsy Domico did not have the rifle made. I found another name with an address in Vienna written in ink on the inside of the scope case cover which I can't make out. Domico probably acquired it later and then lost it in a craps game with my step-brother, Charles Fowler, a Merchant Marine.
The action and trigger feel smooth but the barrel has seen better days. Unfortunately, Charles brought some tracer rounds home, as well, and he and Dad had some fun firing them at night without proper cleaning afterward. The barrel was fouled for many years, impervious to cleaning, until I applied a coat of Break Free a few years ago (and then forgot about it). When I cleaned the rifle again, recently, all that stuff came out. Amazing! Anyhow, the four-groove rifling is a little worn and there is, maybe, some minor pitting. I need to have someone who knows what's what look at it.
Well, I've prattled on enough. I have to figure out how to reduce the file size of my pics and I'll post a few more later.
Thanks, again.

Hey, Rick.
Been looking around other forums and saw some photos of examples of Waffenfrankonia sporterized 98s. My rifle bears a remarkable resemblance in the look of the stock and the way the sling attaches to the barrel. Mine does not have the high custome features of the Waffenfrankonias - sort of a low-rent version. Could be a knock-off by a cottage gunsmith or even by a moonlighting Waffenfankonia gunsmith doing a little work on the side. A quickie job with the rear sight left on, which is kind of odd.
Anyhow, opinions on this from all are appreciated.
And I am still interested in finding an original or copy of a sling with front mount. My day took the original off and had the hole in the barrel filled.
Thanks again, to all for comments.

Thank you.

Jim

When I first noticed my rifle's similarity to examples Waffenfrankonia-built Mauser sporters, I found a thread with a photo of several German sporters in a cabinet with three that looked like Waffenfrankonias. I was in a hurry and closed it thinking I could easily find it again with a search. But, search as I may, I cannot find the photo. I honestly can't even remember where they were - might have been on gunboards. I am now motivated to try to build a collection of these undervalued, IMO, rifles. If anyone has photos of their Waffenfrankonia sporters I would love to see them.
Dang, I am still working on reducing the file-size of my photos so I can upload them to this thread. No size restrictions on gunboards. Whazzupwidat?

Can someone take a look at the markings on the bottom of the receiver and tell me what they mean. Do they indicate an approximate sn correlation?

Gents: Would the NS on bottom of reciever indicate a nickle steel receiver which would likle place it's production date in the 1920's-1930's when Springfiled started using up Rock Island receivers and material. I had a good friend now deceased that had two mousers made up by German gunsmiths while stationed in the army in Germany. These were to be used for hunting in Germany. However before getting a German license, he had to undertake rigorous schooling and pass a test in order to do so. He also bought a springfield and 45 auto as was described by anoother post. Sandymac

Thanks Sandymac. Both the barrel (2-30) and receiver are Springfield Armory - you can read it underneath the forward scope mount. The "nickle steel" assessment makes sense. I was thinking the J 100 mark might be a batch number which could indicate a serial number range.

Hello, been away for a while but checking in from time to time.
I read somewhere recently that the military rifle guild guns, that this rifle typifies, have that very slender fore end bedause they reshaped the military stocks to save cost and there just isn't much material out there. That explains why my rifle still has the military rear sight. I'm thinking of adding a custom hand guard, shaped from a military piece to finish the look on top.
Any insight into the practice of incorporating military stocks on sporter conversions in Germany and Austria.

First of all the stock on your rifle was not made from a military stock. I would not add or take away anything from this rifle, it is what it is.
As for it typifying a German so called guild gun, it does not.

Recently a site displayed a set of drawings for a Mauser manufactured Springfield 1903 actioned Sporting rifle.
Apparently some US shooters had tried to interest Mauser in producing these rifles for the US market.

The drawings show a very nicely done rifle mixing European and American styling.

I'll have to check on the details but I think Townsend Whelen was mentioned as being one of those who'd tried to get the ball rolling on this.

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Originally Posted by Alfred

Recently a site displayed a set of drawings for a Mauser manufactured Springfield 1903 actioned Sporting rifle.
Apparently some US shooters had tried to interest Mauser in producing these rifles for the US market.

The drawings show a very nicely done rifle mixing European and American styling.

I'll have to check on the details but I think Townsend Whelen was mentioned as being one of those who'd tried to get the ball rolling on this.

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Kind of like fighting a forest fire, put out out one and another jumps up;).

In 1929 A. F. Stoeger got Townsend Whelen to design a custom sporting rifle for them as they were entering the custom rifle market. Because Stoeger had a working relationship with Mauser it seems they sent a copy of the blueprints to Mauser, Mauser converted the measurements to metric, end of story.

Back before WWI Mauser made at least one rifle using the 1903 Action, this had NOTHING to do with the later Stoeger drawings.

1903 by Mauser.
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Originally Posted by Michael Petrov

Kind of like fighting a forest fire, put out out one and another jumps up;).

In 1929 A. F. Stoeger got Townsend Whelen to design a custom sporting rifle for them as they were entering the custom rifle market. Because Stoeger had a working relationship with Mauser it seems they sent a copy of the blueprints to Mauser, Mauser converted the measurements to metric, end of story.

Back before WWI Mauser made at least one rifle using the 1903 Action, this had NOTHING to do with the later Stoeger drawings.

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Where would I find information on the pre WW1 Mauser/1903?

There was a Mexican Mauser that combined elements od 03 Springfield with the basic Mauser action. Mostly cosmetic and ergonomic additions.

PS
One of the finest commercial Mausers was the "Special Range Rifle" a competitor of the Springfield at least up to the 600 yard mark, not many of those made.

"Where would I find information on the pre WW1 Mauser/1903?"

You just read it, there is a little more in my book and there might be some info in Jon Speed's last book but I have not checked that. The pictures were found at the Mauser factory by Jon Speed and he was kind enough to share them with me.

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Originally Posted by Michael Petrov

"Where would I find information on the pre WW1 Mauser/1903?"

You just read it, there is a little more in my book and there might be some info in Jon Speed's last book but I have not checked that. The pictures were found at the Mauser factory by Jon Speed and he was kind enough to share them with me.

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Be nice to at least know the caliber for sure.
The action would be well suited to the longer German african game cartridges.
The rear sight could be the same or at least very similar to the Special range Rifle sight.
The Range Rifle has a handguard that obscures the view but the rear open sight looks similar, in size at least.

Years ago I passed up a near perfect J P Sauer & Son in one of the long 8mm chamberings, 8X60 or longer.
Only reasons I didn't jump on it was first the difficulty in finding ammo, and that it looked to have been restocked with a butt and fore arm that seemed to be in an american style.
Later I found that these had been stocked at the factory in this style for the US market.
Last time I saw one of this for sale they wanted about 20 times what I could have paid for it. Beautiful rifles.

2aimtrue,

The serial number of your rifle falls somewhere between S/N 1331357 and S/N 1359464, exclusive, and was manufactured at Springfield Armory in late 1929 or 1930. The barrel was also manufactured at Springfield Armory in 1930 and is the original barrel. The receiver is made from nickel steel and should be safe for shooting if in good condition.

Hope this helps. Thanks for sharing! :wave:

J.B.

Nice old rifle. Great information provided by all. For those interested in the old rifles, I can highly recommend Michael Petrov's book. It is great throne reading!

Jim

I agree with Jim, Michael's book is great!

Happy New Year and thanks to all, but especialy Michael Petrov and John Beard, for the information posted on this thread and to Rick the Librarian for starting it.

I had not intended to characterize the rifle as anything other than an interesting post-WWII European sporter. There seems to be some confusion among a few people about what, exactly, a guild gun is. I wish I could find the source of the article on the internet, again, that discussed the practice of modifying military stocks for sporters and the guild gun definition. In my enthusiasm as a novice and the fact that the stock seems so perfectly inletted to accomodate the original rear sight collar, and everything else for that matter, I made a stupid assumption.

On the CMP site, there is a discussion about early and late bolts for the 1903 that describes the later, double heat-treated, ones as having a slightly swept-back handle. They say that some of the later bolts had straight handles but that they are not easily identified. As my bolt is the straight handle type, is there any way to determine whether it is a later version and possibly the original bolt for the rifle?

The scope is at Don Miller's being refurbished. I would like to find replacement sling swivel hardware that is orginal or an accurate replica. Can anyone point me toward a supplier? The butt-end of the stock is a little short for me, especially with the scope sitting so far rearward. Can anyone reccommend a recoil pad that is similar to something from the period and which can be mounted without modifying the stock? Should I go with a slip-on? And, finally, I would love to find a messed-up hand guard that I can experiment with and, possibly, adapt to the rifle.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

That bolt shpould have some tiny numbers stamped on the bolt handle. S 10? Check. Handguard? Recoil pad? Sincerely, all you could possibly do is mess up a rather nice and valuable sporter. Leave it alone. Put on a sweater and then a shooting coat. Leave the rifle as original, please.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

That bolt shpould have some tiny numbers stamper on the bolt handle. S 10? Check. Handguard? Recoil pad? Sincerely, all you could possibly do is mess up a rather nice and valuable sporter. Leave it alone. Put on a sweater and then a shooting coat. Leave the rifle as original, please.

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I have examied the bolt thoroughly and there are no numbers stamped anywhere.
I would not do anything to the rifle that is not reversible and without damage. The recoil pad idea is to gain some length in the stock butt, not for recoil protection. The scope sits so far to the rear that scope-eye is a problem unless one exercises caution.
Believe me, I do not want to mess the rifle up. I just want to whittle on some wood.

About every rifle I ever used had a short LOP. I bought a leather-Velcro slip on pad that I put an extra inch of material in the bottom and carry it in my shooting kit. Does no damage to the stock and it works just fine. There are many different ones out there here is a link to see what they look like.

Medium Deluxe Leather Slip-On Gun Recoil Pad

Take a very hard look on the top of the bolt handle also/and at the bottom where the handle joins the bolt. Anything? Check the safety lug as well. Be very careful about whittling on a valuable rifle. Good luck. You need a high-end appraisal. Look around for high-end auctions. You might be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Michael Petrov

About every rifle I ever used had a short LOP. I bought a leather-Velcro slip on pad that I put an extra inch of material in the bottom and carry it in my shooting kit. Does no damage to the stock and it works just fine. There are many different ones out there here is a link to see what they look like.

Medium Deluxe Leather Slip-On Gun Recoil Pad

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I had already pretty much decided to go this route. Thanks for the link, Mr. Petrov.:bow:

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Take a very hard look on the top of the bolt handle also/and at the bottom where the handle joins the bolt. Anything? Check the safety lug as well. Be very careful about whittling on a valuable rifle. Good luck. You need a high-end appraisal. Look around for high-end auctions. You might be surprised.

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Honestly, I have looked the bolt over carefully with a loupe. There are no stampings anywhere. There is what appears to be a small punch mark on the bottom of the bolt handle, but that's all.
The "whittling" would be on a hand guard, only, and just as an exercise.
If I may, what is your estimation of a range of value? I have been advised by another collector that the value is probably around $1K, tops.

In a high-end auction, more then 1K for sure. Nice rifle, for sure.

Anyone else here have any insight into the bolt situation? I'm curious as to whether it could be the original bolt.

Have you looked at the bolts on Vi Shooter's site? Very good.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Have you looked at the bolts on Vi Shooter's site? Very good.

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Thanks Calif-Steve for all your help with this. I have looked at the Vi Shooters site. The only thing I can glean from their information is that the bolt has the correct FP (SA 1929-40). That puts in the right time frame, at least, and indicates that it is a later, double-heat-treated (right?), bolt and probably the original. I think I can assume that it is the correct bolt for the rifle, anyway.

I note the bolt handle is NOT swept back. You may well have an early low-number bolt. Not dangerous or unsafe. These bolts were a key inspection point by Army personnel. You look closely at the bolt for signs of cracking around the locking lugs. The early bolts are very smooth and run slick in the receiver.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

I note the bolt handle is NOT swept back. You may well have an early low-number bolt. Not dangerous or unsafe. These bolts were a key inspection point by Army personnel. You look closely at the bolt for signs of cracking around the locking lugs. The early bolts are very smooth and run slick in the receiver.

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The bolt does seem slick and does run smoothly but I have nothing for comparison. However, the cocking piece/firing pin is identical to the pic at Vi Shooters for the 1929-40 era. And the CMP site says that some later bolts were made with straight handles but not easily identified, as I noted earlier.

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Originally Posted by 2aimtrue

Honestly, I have looked the bolt over carefully with a loupe. There are no stampings anywhere. There is what appears to be a small punch mark on the bottom of the bolt handle, but that's all.
The "whittling" would be on a hand guard, only, and just as an exercise.
If I may, what is your estimation of a range of value? I have been advised by another collector that the value is probably around $1K, tops.

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It would appear that you have a very early SHT bolt.:beerchug:

Jim:cool:

Pardon my ignorance but what is SHT?

Never mind. Single-heat-treated, I recon.
Was it, then, modified with a later firing pin?
What differentiates it from being a DHT bolt with a straight handle per CMP? Which is better?
The gun has a very smooth action. I can't wait to shoot it, again. It's been a long time.

Look very carefully on the safety lug. You might find something.

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

Look very carefully on the safety lug. You might find something.

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Calif-Steve, seriously, I have examined the bolt quite thoroughly. There are no identifying stamp marks. Safety lug has READY & SAFE but nothing else.
I will try to post some additional pics this weekend.
Not wanting to obsess on this but wouldn't an all-Springfield-original-parts gun be more desirable?
I am considering trying to contact Patsy Domico, mentioned earlier in this thread.

...on the front of the bolt are two locking lugs that lock it closed. On the right side is a third lug that is in front of the rear reciever bridge when the bolt is locked. It is to stop the bolt if the other two lugs fail. That is your safety lug.
HTH , Chris

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

...on the front of the bolt are two locking lugs that lock it closed. On the right side is a third lug that is in front of the rear reciever bridge when the bolt is locked. It is to stop the bolt if the other two lugs fail. That is your safety lug.
HTH , Chris

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As you can tell, I'm still learning nomenclature.
Nothing on the safety lug, either.

You have a very nice hunting rifle. Hang on to it!! Your bolt is quite OK to me. Trying to find a "better" bolt will prove to be expensive and a "so-what" proposition. Don't obsess on anything. Again, look very carefully on the safety lug.

I love the rifle and don't want to change it. Just trying to learn something and, hopefully, determine that the bolt is factory original.
I think I should avoid jacketed ammo to preserve the rifling, which I think is a little worn. Is there good cast target ammo available commercially in .30-06? I plan to Gun Juice it, first thing.
I may have found sling swivels:
Home
I hope to get the scope back from Don Miller soon.
It would be a hoot to get a military stock and have a "fantasy hybrid" WWII sniper configuration option. The deadly Springfield .30-06 with Austrian (German) optics. All polished and blued.

Hope these work and are of interest:
I have to resize the jpg files.

:sos:COULD SOME KIND PERSON GIVE ME ANY INFO AVAILABLE, SHOULD THERE BE A HIT ON ROCK ISLAND #315133 ? THANKS IN ADVANCE! JERRY

I have to accept, as many have pointed out, that the bolt is an early SHT piece. Lynn Merriweather at CMP verified as much (I think John Beard was there when we talked). It may have been installed because the handle clears the scope, better. It still grazes the ocular bell when operated, however.

Don Miller says the scope dates to around 1940 and, as I knew, is a commercial version. He has it soaking in penetrant to ease dissasembly. Don says that during the war, an inferior, soft metal (war metal) was used on interior parts that was susceptable to siezing in the tube - that's why the focus ring was stuck. He takes steps to mitigate the problem when he reassembles them.

I believe the sling swivels at New England Custom Guns are correct replicas.
Home
A guy there said that the front swivel was probably soldered on. So the silver oblong on the barrel is not "fill" but left-over solder. If the barrel is rust-blued, a new swivel can be soldered on and the bluing touched-up. If it is hot-blued, the barrel would have to be re-blued. Don't want to go there. Any advice on that?

Got a nice Pachmayer Classic Leather slip-on recoil pad and some Gun Juice. All I need is the scope and some ammo and I'm ready to take her to the range. I am looking to get a good starter gunsmith screwdriver set. Any recommendations?

Thanks again to all. I'm really enjoying learning about m1903 rifles.

I just noticed an "R" stamped on the cut-off switch. Does that mean it is a Remington part?

Hello, Friends.

I have been away quite a while, distracted by knee surgery first then a very heavy work schedule. I later got into a levergun and spent a lot of time learning about and working on that rifle. I have lurked here occaisionaly and have found that this is one of the most civilized and informative gun forums on the net. Really great folks.

Anyhow, to continue the story,I was able to get an Uncle Mike's swivel mount that fit the barrel and mounted that in the place where the old mount had been soldered. It now has a Montana sling and a Pachmyer slip-on recoil pad that fits nicely with an extra 1/4 inch of neoprene foam from an old mouse pad to add a little LOP.

Meanwhile, I had sent the scope to Don Miller for refurbishing, as you know. He had it for months but was never able to dislodge the erector assembly from the tube and did not want to damage it by forcing. He finally gave up and sent it back to me and I have been looking for a donor scope to salvage an erector assembly from ever since. These Kahles H4x60 scopes are hard to find, now, and expensive. I have found one on a German gun sales site that is for sale for 190 Euros, which is the best price I have found, so far. I need to pull the trigger in the next couple of days if I decide to go down that road. If anyone has a lead on another one in the US for sale it would, no doubt, be a simpler transaction for me as I don't speak German. Any help is appreciated.

After I got all the carbon and copper out of the bore I took it to a range and put a couple of boxes of Fiocci boat tails down it. I didn't have the time to set up a target so I just blasted some silouhettes from 100 to 300 yards out. Had lots of fun and got a sore shoulder. If I ever get the scope repaired I will dial it in and submit a range report.

The action is very slick and I have noticed that the bolt does not exhibit a positive "lock" when closed and there is the possibility, I suppose, of firing the rifle with the handle not all the way down. I made sure it was, however, when I fired it. Is that something I should be concerned about? Other than that it is a nice shooter.

Thanks, again, for all the help.

I bought this scope:
Google Translate
Will be sending it, along with mine, to Don Miller. I can only hope that the internals all work.