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It's got a bit different of markings on the chamber area of the barrel...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dBarrel1-1.jpg
No other markings on the barrel that I have found. I haven't removed the top handguard, so I don't know if there's anything under there. What do ya think?
are there any markings on the left side of the barrel above the gas cylinder ?
AFPG?
No. There are no markings in that area, the typical area of the NM stamp.
AFPG? What's that?
Edit: I take it back: there is a VERY faint AFPG in that area. However, there is no NM stamp there.
I've got a few pictures of the area, I'll upload them shortly.
Ok, here goes nothing...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF3580-1.jpg
This one was the best/most visible. It's right above the bayonet lug on the barrel. It's chambered in .30 cal, not 7.62...
Here's a close up of that area:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...GCloseup-1.jpg
Nice Catch on spotting the AFPG characteristics Mark - :thup:
AFPG stands for Air Force Premium Grade
Air Force Armorers hand selected barrels for use on their match rifles - - they would normally stamp NM on the barrel and AFPG...
Now there are a few things to look at on the rest of the rifle to see if you have a match rifle or simply a rifle using a spare AFPG barrel.
you already have one indication - the Air Force would polish the barrel under the op rod to allow smooth operation.
Is the stock bedded? is the handgaurd ferrules screwed on? what type of screw head (slotted / phillips)?
now the weird part - the air force would drill a hole on the rear sight lug, put a small ball bearing into the hole with a spring, notch the back side of the adjustment knob creating a 1/2moa sight adjustment out of a 1moa sight knob...... look under the sight knob and see of you can see the little ball bearing shining back at you (or remove the sight and see)
Let us know what you find - - -
Steve :beerchug:
The stock appears to be bedded, the handguard ferrule is screwed on, the screws used are slotted. When looking under the sight knob, you mean remove the windage knob and see if there's the small ball-bearing or can I just remove the cover and look in there? The rear sight base seems to be stamped NM. I bought it from the CMP. Who knows if the rear sight had been replaced since it's initial build...
Here's the rear sight from the windage knob side. I haven't taken it apart to see if the internals are actually modified as described.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...earSight-1.jpg
Looks like you may have a winner there - a very desirable rifle
Thanks! When I originally got it, I thought it might be a NM rifle. I took it to a local JCG Match Director guy who looked it over and he thought it wasn't a NM rifle, rather one built for competition at the unit level. He missed the AFPG mark on the barrel just as I did and I guess that he missed the polishing of chamber area that the AFPG rifles have...
I'm surprised that the CMP let these out. How many AFPG rifles are there? Anyone take a guess? If these are fairly scarce, I'd be very surprised that they let these out for the regular pricing...
From what little I've been able to find about AFPG rifles, they seem to be a sub-group of NM rifles...
From what little I've been able to find about AFPG rifles, they seem to be a sub-group of NM rifles...[/QUOTE]
One of our fellow shooters was a full colonel in the Air Force - according to him when he was in the rules stated that all AFPG had to be returned and could not be sold as surplus. If true few are out there.
I've found an AFPG listed on Gunbroker and it's supposed to be a 7.62 version. I've also seen (cached), pictures of the AFPG modification to the rear sight. One person has an AFPG posted on his website, but the picture is so bad you can't tell it from another Garand with a nice stock.
AFPG rifles seem to have gotten out, but not in any great number... at least as far as I can tell.
They do exist outside - but are very hard to find -
Steve
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09/05/18-1.jpg
I may be wrong but I thought CMP had an AFPG on the Auction site not to long ago. Maybe 2 months ago or so.
I was a college boy shooting at Camp Bullis, in San Antonio 1967-71. There were always many Air Force teams firing M-1's (only). Generally they were Security Service from Lackland and Kelly AFB's. In the time I was there the Air Force rifles were nearly all .30'06 but there were some 7.62. They were all AFPG's with that characteristioc polished rear-underside of the barrel. As an aside, the 4th Marine Recon Battalion (reserve) also in SA, had a rifle team that also used M-1 match rifles, and they were in the "original" .30'06.
Air Force shooters were very companionable but always tight with their ammunition. The "Brass Hounds" would cry "Long Ones!!! Long Ones!!" as they rushed to police up the '06 empties... San Antonio Big Bore Rifle Club always hauled the majority of the brass off and I remember the head man in the stat trailer, with his little Clark Gable moustache, would have 4-5 ammo crates full to the top with 1F match brass to sell after every day's shooting.
That's a great story!
Anyway, someone posted over at the CMP forum that some of the AFPG rifles may have been loaned to DCM shooting clubs and subsequently returned to the CMP and later sold. If my rifle started life as an AFPG and later went to a DCM club, that would explain the lack of an AFPG rear sight... and it being replaced with a NM sight. If the old one was broken or the club didn't like the AFPG modification... I can see them replacing it. If other components eventually wore out, I can see that those might have been replaced too. I don't think that the rifle has all of the components from when it would have been issued as an AFPG rifle, if that is truly what it is.
I think I've got a long way to go before I can truly figure out what exactly my rifle's history is.
Does anyone know if the USAF shooting team still has or would still have records of what rifles went through their shop or where I would find that info?
I just checked under the windage knob. It definitely does NOT have the typical AFPG modification for the 1/2 MOA adjustment. Given that there are a LOT of NM parts on this rifle, I can think of a couple scenarios that might have given rise to what this thing is. This rifle certainly is a mixer, but the question is "who did the mixing and when was it done?"
One scenario that I can come up with is that this rifle could have been an AFPG build that never was completed in their shop. Meaning that they'd installed the barrel, unitized the front handguard with the lower band, installed a lot of the metal hardware on the rifle, and then for some reason, work stopped on it. Therefore, it wasn't targeted, the rear sight mod was never done, and it was returned/loaned to a club and spent most of it's life there, until it was returned to the DCM/CMP. The barrel has been shot quite a bit. It's got some muzzle wear. I remember it gauging about a 2 when I had it looked at, with a TE around 3-4. (I'm not certain though.)
The stock IS bedded, but it's not stamped with this rifle's serial. It's a VERY good fit though.
I got it from the CMP. It would have originally come from either the Military to the DCM or Military to a DCM club and back to the DCM. I don't think that this rifle was anything BUT a competition gun.
Now I'm getting really curious about my rifle. If the CMP built my rifle up, I'd have thought it would have been cleaner when I got it... I think they basically sent it out to me the way they'd gotten it.
My rifle's a mystery to me... I really wonder if the shop that built AFPG rifles kept a record of M1 serials that entered their shop. Does anyone know if they did that and where I'd find the answer?
I have the same no.s on my garand, SAF 6535448, 12 54 A222C. What do they mean, new garand owner here, issued one in the 50's in Germany. Didn't get much info from the Air Force. Thanks
SA (Springfield Armory) F6565448 (Drawing number) 12 54 (made in December 1954) The rest, I'm not sure about.
Just an update of this, I just found out on another board that the AFPG rifles used both the standard and the NM bases for windage adjustments. It seems to be more possible that my rifle really IS an AFPG... I'm waiting on some confirmation of this, but... holding my breath I am not!Quote:
Originally Posted by Akulahawk
Collectors call these "Match Rifles," not "National Match Rifles," to distinguish them from guns made at SA under the formal NM program. They were built to NM specs, but unfortunately don't bring the money the SA NM's do because any of a dozen retired armorers could built one tomorrow and nobody could tell. Some call rifles like yours "Lackland Guns" after the AFB at which many were built.
There is a afpg at cmp right now bidding is over 4000.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
Current link to that AFPG is USAF Premium Grd NM M-1 Garand SN- 5836756 AuctionQuote:
Originally Posted by noslack 327
It's bid is over $4400 now.
This one has a 3/63 barrel... and it's an AFPG. (auction closed). It's a 6.1 mil rifle, with the typical AFPG rear sight mod. http://auction.odcmp.com/auctions/detail.asp?id=1556
It went for just over $5700.
What is the deal on t he serifed "NM" markings on the chamber area, is that marking only seen on AFPG rifles? I have a couple of rifles with those barrels on them, one a H&R with bedded stock and slotted screw secured hand guards, but I do not remember it having any "AFPG" or "NM" markings on the barrel over the gas cylinder, just the serifed "NM" marking on the chamber.
I have no idea... It's something I've noticed on some rifles. I'm still learning about NM/Match Garand rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garandeguy10
Was this bought as anything special or just a service grade?
Just a CMP service grade.
Nice find
Thanks! In addition, this was literally just a mail-order thing. I didn't go to either of the stores to hand-pick this. They picked it for me. I didn't even ask for anything nice... or specific.
Blind squirrel syndrome.
:yikes: I think you might be right about that... :yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt
I, too, have a 6.9 mil that has been match graded. It has a NM engraved on the left side of the barrel behind the front sight. It also has a NM op rod, front sight and rear sight. The stock has been very nicely bedded with what apears to be Brownell's Accura-Glass. Since seeing your posts, I have looked very carefully for an AFPG on my barrel to no avail. The barrel has, however, been brightly polished at the rear under the op rod.
I bought this rifle from an individual (an older gentleman) who had given up competitive shooting. The rifle is in "as new" condition.
Any ideas what I may have?
Army Reserve match teams. The USAR HAD a very active match program 10-15 years ago. No longer true.
With the exception of the “AFPG”, marking, the markings on the M1 barrel in picture number one are consistent with markings on replacement NM M1 barrels available from the Springfield Armory for army armorers and thru the DCM for civilians during the 1960’s. . I have, at various times owned six of these and still have one installed on a Winchester M1 match rifle built for me by an army armorer. SA would take standard barrels, proof fire them, run them across the Kollmorgen straightness gauge and the Sheffield Precisionaire air gauge to measure bore run out. If the barrel passed, it was stamped “NM” with individual serfied (sp?)letters. The letters “NM” were not engraved on the NM M1 barrel near the gas cylinder until the completed NM rifle passed all acceptance tests, consequently replacement barrels will not have this marking. After the army converted most of its rifle teams to the NM M14, the USAF elected to stay with the 30 caliber M1 (according to members of the USAF team I have talked with). I would assume that the barrel in question was obtained from the SA and stamped “AFPG” when the USAF armorers built the team rifles. The USAF team members I talked with claimed that the 7.62 M1 was more accurate than the M14. Along about 1967/68, 30 M72 Match ammo was becoming hard to find so the AF contracted with SA to build them 7.62 mm M1 match barrels. There was quite a scandal at Perry one year. It seems that the SA built several hundred 7.62 mm M1 Match barrels for the USAF and about 50 of them went missing. I had the opportunity to shoot a Navy built (by WO Frazer, I believe) match conditioned M1 in 7.62 one season when a Navy commander let me use one. It shot well but seemed to prefer the FA 65 M118 7.62 ammo over the later LC M118 (67 & 68 production). NM M1 parts were available to the civilians thru the DCM up until about 1967 through I never saw and NM Op Rods or Gas Cylinders offered. After the late 1960’s, DOD support of the marksman ship programs was drastically reduced. In the late 1960’s, I changed jobs and later went to Viet Nam so kind of lost touch with what went on after that.
This info is strictly anecdotal and I am sure that there are experts on this board that can provide more accurate info
Cosine, on another forum, Bob Seijas indicated that the NM stamp was essentially a "whole rifle" proof from SA that the rifle met NM specifications. I would imagine that being at the time it was built. It also seems that AFPG is an Air Force only stamping that signifies that the rifle was built to AFPG standard, and met NM standards, even if the barrel wasn't stamped "NM" between the gas cyl rings.
I'm working on getting whatever records the CMP has on my rifle. Given the AFPG stamp and lack of a "NM" stamp, I suspect that my rifle may have been rebuilt/rebarreled. I've read that USAF teams sent their rifles back to their shop to be rebuilt every year. You indicate that those markings are consistent with replacement barrels. If the original barrel had been shot out, I can see the shop doing a rebarrel during the rifle's rebuild.
At this point, I suspect that my rifle is an experienced (shot a LOT) AFPG.
I will continue researching my rifle. If it's not an AFPG, I'll not be all that disappointed, for it's a nice rifle... and it's mine. ;)
I'd be tickled to learn my rifle's history... Someone, somewhere, if still alive, might remember it.
Unless you are mistaken as to the 6.9 mil. serial number, your receiver may have been made by Springfield Armory INC. not the Govt. SA. The highest known Serial Number for the M1 rifle is 6100499, which is a NM rifle. I hope you ment 6.09 mil. and not 6.9 mil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokepole
Assuming it is 6.09, you may have a SA built NM rifle. I am not sure, but I believe the majority of the 6 mil rifles were NM rifles. If not the majority, a good number were NM.
I think he means "6.09" mil... after the last of the 6.1mil rifles, I think the serials restarted in the 7 mil range when the commercial Springfield Armory began building new M1's.
I concur, the SA INC. rifles started sn's in the 7 million range.
Dan
Dan,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Wilson
Actually they started at serial number 1 in the 1970s. BATF told them they are duplicating US M1 serial numbers and suggested they continue numbering somewhere else which resulted in using the 7 million numbers. It's unknown how many they duplicated early but at one time SA Inc. was actively trying to get them back and have them exchanged.
Makes sense to me... I find it a stretch, though, that they'd get to 6.9 million before the BATFE told them to renumber. So... realistically, the SA, Inc. would have been either a fairly low number or over 7 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramboueille
I know you are correct regarding SA Inc. starting at 7 mil. Off hand I didn't recall, but I am sure Ramboueille was not implying that SA Inc. produced over 6 million rifles and reached the 6.9 mil. range. before being directed to renumber. My take is that he is just offering some historical information in regards to SA Inc. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Akulahawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W
You both are correct. The SA. Inc. new numbering started at 7,000,000 after BATF instructions. I don't know how many were built starting with serial number 1 before that. It wasn't many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akulahawk
And of course, knowing is half the battle... ;)
Although SA, Inc producing say just over 6 million receivers and then having to restart in the 7 mil range would certainly make perfect bureaucratic sense... ;) or would that be non-sense... LOL
Thank you for that bit of info, pretty interesting little addition to my knowledge! :)
Dan
I was able to get to the range yesterday (finally, after many months) and I was able to put some 168gr Black Hills Gold ammunition down range. That stuff is loaded for an M1, and is supposed to be very close to Hornady's M1 load, if not a duplicate. Both use Hornady's A-Max bullet.
Anyway, using a standard NRA Military Type 100 yard target, the rifle should easily hold the 10 ring with this load. I made no attempt to adjust the sights to actually put those rounds in the 10 ring as I was shooting for group, not a particular impact point.
The loose wingnut behind the trigger did his best to do his part... but since he's still not good at shooting rifles... I figure that there might have been an inch or so difference in point of aim from shot to shot. I doubt it'll do X ring groups, but certainly the 10 ring with the wingnut as loose as he is!
Thumbnail of the group. I placed bullets on the BHG group. The I measured, center to center, the furthest holes... that's what the calipers are showing. The other holes were function testing of my reloads.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rBHGroup-1.jpg