At least they are being used for something, unlike the F-14's that are being chewed up in the desert.
Where Have All the Phantoms Gone? | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine
:cheers:
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At least they are being used for something, unlike the F-14's that are being chewed up in the desert.
Where Have All the Phantoms Gone? | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine
:cheers:
I saw one of the drones at Oshkosh a couple of years ago. It was in beautiful condition. It's sad to see them blown to pieces. I wish I could buy one for the value of the scrap metal. Carl
Uh Red, those F14's are NOT being chewed up in the desert. They are a source of spares for our allies who still use them.
Same as the B52's in storage, that are keeping others flying.
There are lots of airceaft out there, some supplying parts, and others being put back into service when needed. there are also airframes that are simply out of time and can't be safely put back into use.
Great story at Red's link. But in reading the comments, WOW!!!!
Some great personal stories added to the article.
Great story!
it takes four raptors to kill an F-4.
The F-4 was a big plane, about 80% the weight of a B-17. We built close to 6,000 of them at about 2.5 mil a pop. It was McNamara's idea that all the services should have just one fighter, and the F-4 was it. Considering that design work started 1953, it was a pretty good plane for the '60s and '70s.
McNamara has taken a lot of gas, but he had it right on the F-4. Go to the Air Force museum, or the displays they have at Hill AFB north of Slat Lake. In the 50's we had a zillion different planes we were flying, each the result of a different combo of senators, lobbyists and aircraft manufacturers. Most of them were multimillion $ POS. And it was a logistical nightmare. Plus they never got the weapons systems worked out. The F-4 pilots were crying, "give us guns" cause the AA missiles they had were so crummy. It wasn't until late in the war they got decent AA missiles. We're doing that part a lot better now.
Back to the F-4. A guy took one to 30,000 meters (98,000 ft.) in a test in 1962. It took him a little over 6 minutes. he had to shut down 'cause the air was so thin, lit back up when he got down to 75,000 ft. That was with a stone-stock plane. An F-4 with water injection hit 1600 mph in level flight.
What the F-4s faced in Viet Nam was mainly Mig 17s, 19s and an occasional 21. Plus SAMs. The F-105s suffered 50% attrition, the F-4s survived. Was it a great plane? Ask the guys who flew them.
OK, now we are watching the F-22 go down the tubes. The pilots say it is a great plane. We were going to build 380 of them, looks like we're going to pull the plug at 185, and move on to the cheaper F-35. Secretary Gates has had the F-22 in his sights since he was appointed by Bush. I don't see Obama overruling him. I voted for the man, but I think he and Gates are dead wrong on this one. In 5 years the Chinese could have planes as good as any in the world. Since I was a kid the U.S. has owned the tactical air space. Do we really want to give up that edge?
... It is a fact that Captain Crunch is eating all the Tomcats out in the desert. The only country to still operate the F-14 is Iran. These were sold to them in the 1970s prior to the fall of the Shah. As a result, US F-14s are being destroyed to ensure that spare parts are not available for Iranian use.
https://oasis.northgrum.com/tempdocs/F-14_DISPOSAL.PDF
:crying:
They always looked like wasps to me: So many interesting angles. I remember them taxiing around on the opposite side of the base when I was training on the bomber ops side at Blytheville after Operation Chrome Dome shut down.
Bob
it was a recycling show and showed them building target planes--sorry Red we are talking about F4's not F14's
Jon, McNamara's multi-service fighter dream was really the F-111. The F4 predated McNamara and while McNamara pressured the Air Force to utilize the F4 which was already in use by the USN and USMC, his real goal was to develop a new airframe capable of being used by all seervices. The Navy wisely decided not to play the F-111 game but it was a costly move for Vice Admiral Thomas Connolly the DCNO for Air Warfare who testified before Congress that the F-111 was not a suitable naval fighter aircraft. The nickname for the F14 (Tomcat) was a tribute to Connolly. Rick
lots of mechanical noise as they went over at about 100 ft and the jet noise hadn't gotten there yet. Then BOOM a 500lb, another pass and a another 500, then two cans of nape and a couple more passes with the 20mm. Then gone, all over in about 10 minutes. They were serious pee bringers and the pilots were good, very good. It was a rough raw aircraft that overpowered its opponents. My good friend worked on them for years in the Marine Air. Out of Chu Lai they would sortie over North VN and he said the Migs would just make a pass through and about 6 or so F4s would take off in hot pursuit at full burner. When they got back, all the Cans or hot sections would be burned out of them and sideline the aircraft for weeks. Equivalent to shooting down 5-6 of them without firing a shot. At full throttle they could stay in the air about 20 minutes. I saw one auger in at night with a pretty full load of fuel, 10 miles away and it lit up the sky like a small city. We even had a few F-100s dropping bombs when I first arrived but then they started losing wings and were retired, replaced by the Phantoms.
Ya'll lookin' for something like this ? No drone, the Collings Foundation F4D on her first phlight in her Robin Olds paint
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2411-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2365-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2353-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2439-1.jpg
We had F-4s at the St Louis Air Guard when I was there, I loved them. I was in the AMMO dump, but we sometimes helped the loaders, 462s, if they needed it. The F-15s we got in 1991 were older than the F-4s we had. We sent our F-4s to Turkey, they really appreciated them. When the F-4s arrived, the Turks put them on alert without even pre-flighting them.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
If it were Robin Olds paint it would have the FG on the vertical stabilizer instead of the FP. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force 433TFS at Ubon RTAFB.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickH
Rick,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Gushman
I stand corrected. Your msg cut through the fog, even I can remember now how McNamara was pushing the F-111. Thru the fog. Funny, the F-4 was siting there under his nose, and he went for the F-One-Murphy's Law-11. And in the end it was the F-4 that became the multi-service fighter. One big, ugly plane that could do it all.
I may have let the defense contractors and their journalist friends do a sales job on me WRT the F-22. That plane sounds so good, and it's less than a billion dollars a pop. Maybe what we need is something the size of an F-16 with the avionics and weapons systems of the F-22. According to Janes, the Chinese are working on something along those lines the Shenyang J-XX.
jn
Actually Nubber, Col Olds was Commander of the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing, and as such, could fly with any squadron within the wing that he wanted to. He was flying 63-7680 which was assigned to the 555th Squadron when Operation Bolo was flown. Robin Olds got a kill on 1/2/67 in 680 with Lt Clifton as the backseater.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/637680-1.jpg
680 was shot down on a later mission with another pilot flying it.
Robin Olds' other mount is at the NMUSAF it is 829 and was assigned to the 433rd.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/05/f4c-1.jpg
I was assigned to the 433TFS in 69 and turned wrenches on 829 if my old memory serves me. It was assigned to B Flight. Here is photo of me and 815.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../161np85-1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by RickH
8 SPS, Ubon, 66-67. I remember F4s coming back from Bolo doing victory rolls. Plural.
The USAF museum at Wright-Pat has two specific aircraft that I worked around--an SR-71 and 829. Weird feeling to encounter some of your past in a museum.
He has lots-o-hours in an F-4 over SEA I believe.......including two more takeoffs than landings...:cheers:
Did we get it right, Guano ? Does she look like one of your jets from back then?
I was stationed at Beal AFB in California from 67-69 on the SR71 with the 9thOMS and then went to McDill to train on F4's before going to Thailand. We have a Blackbird at the Air Museum in Richmond, VA. Yes it does feel funny walking around that aircraft and remembering Feb 67 when I got to Beal and saw it for first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat Guano
cool thread
i think i liked the phantom better than the tomcat. reason being, the phantom didn't have any friggin' software!
plus, the phantom made more smoke which is more macho and less environmentally correct, like me.
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1969:
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/...8122d1.jpg?v=0
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1997
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/...33ec1b.jpg?v=0
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f14 c (convertible)... the pilot was quoted as saying,
"i knew the RIO had ejected when the plane's performance got better."
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3019/...a0c356.jpg?v=0
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iranian tomcats over isfahan, 1977.
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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/...f409a7.jpg?v=0
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the old goo, 1977,
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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/3...9277ed.jpg?v=0
..
these days, both the phantom and the tomcat are obsolete, like me and red.
maybe when we croak, we could be stuffed (like trigger) and they could put us in the back seat of one of those target drones.
More smoke. I remember the Blue angels came to our base and one did a low pass with smoke pouring out. At the right angle an F-4 looks a little like an A-4 and I thought, Oh boy, looks like ones on fire.
The QF4s are used as manned targets as well as drones. We used them in a couple times in Seattle when we were doing F-22 avionics development. Flew then against the flying test bed and the sensor tower. We shot them down many times but not for real. We also used F-16s just depended on who coudl come by and give us some targets. FWIW the F-22 is a great plane but they are going to go with the F-35 because it is "cheaper". The F-35 is probably going to end up being about the same cost but it is only about half as capable think F-16 replacemnt versus F-15 replacement. Lockheed offered a flyaway cost of about $140 million per F-22. An F-35 was supposed to be about half that but last I heard I think it was around $100 million. Knowing what I know about the F-22 I think it is a crying shame they are not building more. The original plan was 750 when the contract was first bid a one for one replacement for the F-15. That dropped to about 350 when the cold war "ended" As it is with 183 of them the F-15 will have to be kept in inventory forever or we will lose most of our intercept capability.
The last time I saw the Blue Angels at NAS Norfolk, they were flying the FA-18. About five minutes into the airborne portion of their show, they flew the diamond formation in down the show line from the right, low and slow. Right about show center the slot man begins blowing black smoke out the right engine. And its just him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dryheat
Almost like it was choreographed, he dropped out, did a truncated offside pattern to land upwind, and landed, smoking all the way. A ground crewman had already fired up the two-seater by the time he taxi'd in. He transferred, caught up, and rejoined with only about five minutes lost.
I was impressed.
Bob
It is nice to have a spare...unfortunately we only have one !
Subj: Eagles 3, crows 0
This is from a guy who runs a 2000 acre corn farm up around Barron, WI, not far from Oshkosh. He used to fly F4Es and F-16s for the Guard and participated in the first Gulf War...
I went out to plant corn for a bit to finish a field before tomorrow
morning and witnessed The Great Battle.
A golden eagle - big bastard, about six foot wingspan - flew right in
front of the tractor. It was being chased by three crows that were
continually dive bombing it and pecking at it. The crows do this
because the eagles rob their nests when they find them.
At any rate, the eagle banked hard right in one evasive maneuver, then
landed in the field about 100 feet from the tractor. This eagle stood
about 3 feet tall. The crows all landed too and took up positions
around the eagle at 120° apart, but kept their distance at about 20
feet from the big bird. The eagle would take a couple steps towards
one of the crows and they'd hop backwards and forward to keep their
distance.
Then the reinforcements showed up.
I happened to spot the eagle's mate hurtling down out of the sky at
what appeared to be approximately Mach 1.5. Just before impact the
eagle on the ground took flight, and the three crows which were
watching the grounded eagle, also took flight thinking they were going
to get in some more pecking on the big bird. The first crow being
targeted by the diving eagle never stood a snowball's chance in hell.
There was a mid-air explosion of black feathers and that crow was
done. The diving eagle then banked hard left in what had to be a 9G
climbing turn, using the energy it had accumulated in the dive, and
hit crow #2 less than two seconds later. Another crow dead.
The grounded eagle, which was now airborne and had an altitude
advantage on the remaining crow, which was streaking eastward in full
burner, made a short dive then banked hard right when the escaping
crow tried to evade the hit. It didn't work - crow #3 bit the dust at
about 20 feet altitude.
This aerial battle was better than any airshow I've been to, including
the warbirds show at Oshkosh! The two eagles ripped the crows apart
and ate them on the ground, and as I got closer and closer working my
way across the field, I passed within 20 feet of one of them as it ate
its catch. It stopped and looked at me as I went by and you could see
in the look of that bird that it knew who's Boss Of The Sky. What a
beautiful bird!
goo, that's a great story. I live in Dunn County so that guy lives in my neck of the woods. Out taking walks I've seen three way aerial battles between red tailed hawks, crows, and bald eagles. None of them resulted in any carnage that I'm aware of. That story gives new meaning to the term eating crow. :) Carl
Goo, good story!
DRB, it's good to hear from someone who is a little closer to the F-22 than I am. i'd rather see us build the right plane. Maybe we should ditch the f-35 and keep the F-16?
This has been a pretty great thread, BTW. This coming from someone who is suspicious of any plane that doesn't have propellers.
jn