Winchester-Lee Navy

I know this is not the correct forum for the Winchester Lee, but hopefully some of you Krag experts can help me out. I have recently came into the possession of a Winchester-Lee Navy that it looks like Grandpa took his favorite whittling knife to. The metal is in great shape, just the stock is awful. I need some help finding a replacement stock and handguard. I also need the barrel bands, and other metal parts, except for the butt plate. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I will even consider reproduction parts at this point. Thanks!!

N-frame,

I think anything related to the Spanish-American War, Philippine War or the Boxer War is fair game here. As for your rifle, if the barrel is uncut, better yet if it still has the military sights, you're in biz. Some of the stock hardware may be shared with the W'95 lever action musket, and you might be able to graft a new fore-end on the original stock, the way the krag restorers often do.

There was a civilian version that had a kind of schnabel fore-end and no handguard, maybe that was what the whittler was trying for? Anyway, there's a lot of expertise here.

Hey, Chuck in Denver, do you do Lee rifles?

jn

I don't know if it would have worked or not, but I just sold a Winchester 95 handguard, sorry I didn't consider this post.

Try S&S firearms parts. They have lots of Win Lee Navy repro parts. Download the catalog and look for the Win Lee parts on pg 26, Ray

Download Catalog

I checked out S&S. It appears that they might have all the parts I need to complete this project. It appears that their parts are reproductions, but at this point in the game, that is ok with me. I'll order the parts, and let you all know how it works out. Thanks guys!!

Phil Seiss at S&S is a great guy. He helped me with "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" book. He has reproduced many of the impossible to find W-L parts.

I have seen Mike Kokolus (Michael M. Kokolus Custom Gun Stock Duplicating) repro Winchester-Lee stock at the Syracuse, NY Gunshow and it is also top notch. I have ordered one from him to restock my first Winchester-Lee. The wood has been cut down and sanded to a sporter - sort of. It is the rifle that started me on my quest for Winchester-Lees so after almost 50 years it will be restored.

GeneM
The Winchester-Lee Rifle
The Remington-Lee Rifle

I'll give Mr. Kokolus a call next week. Does not look like he makes hand guards. Anyone know where I can find a handguard?

Thanks!!

I agree with Jon. Discussion of any U.S. military firearm of the Spanish-American War era would be all right by me. It was done on the old CSP Krag forum and should be allowed here, as well.

Just want to let y'all know that Phil at S&S is a great guy to deal with. Not only did he find me a stock, he also found me an ever elusive hand guard. The reproduction parts he sold me look to be of outstanding quality. Now to fit and finish everything. I'm really looking forward to seeing this project to completion. Thanks for the help guys!!

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Originally Posted by N-Frame

I know this is not the correct forum for the Winchester Lee, but hopefully some of you Krag experts can help me out. I have recently came into the possession of a Winchester-Lee Navy that it looks like Grandpa took his favorite whittling knife to. The metal is in great shape, just the stock is awful. I need some help finding a replacement stock and handguard. I also need the barrel bands, and other metal parts, except for the butt plate. Any help will be greatly appreciated. I will even consider reproduction parts at this point. Thanks!!

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Just out of interest, does anyone make dies and brass for these? Is safe reloading info available for the .236?

C&H Die has the dies but they are pricey ($78.25) and Buffalo Arms carries brass made from 25/06 cases at $34.00 per twenty.
As to safe reloading, I've not seen any current data so its kinda feel your way. Best of luck with this fine old soldier




Welcome to CH Tool & Die / 4D Custom Die
6mm Lee Navy Cases-Obsolete Cases-Obsolete Brass

Art

PS... by the way Phil at S&S is a top flight guy. You can't go wrong there. Also, Check out the premier book on the rifle "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" by Eugene Myszkowski (GeneM) another great guy and a wonderful source of information.

You can do it by reforming .220 Swift brass. Dies are available by special order from RCBS.

N-Frame;
I'd really like to see photos when you have completed your project.

I've read that some Winchester Lee rifles were cut down while still in service, due to warped fore ends beyond the lower band.
These were used as range rifles I think.

If that story is correct some Winchester Lees that appear Bubba'ed may in fact be historically correct modifications.

Any body ever shoot one of these? Seems like every one I've looked at is either broken, missing parts, or just too rough to mess with!

I had one that was restored including re-blued. I had no choice because the whole affair was so thrashed to begin with. The parts were all there but the stock had to be made new. I sent it to a man called Harvey Trace in Edmonton Ab. and he pantographed me one. I have heard that he handed the business to his son some years ago. I did have some finishing wood work to do but it wasn't bad. I shot it, it was a sporter, using ammo I loaded by neck re-sizing in 220 Swift dies. I used the original bullets until I ran out. Then I used 223 bullets. I used original brass bought where ever I could find it. I used 3031 dupont (at the time), 30 grains. Some of the bullets vaporised on the way to the target with a black puff of smoke and I think this was from their construction and the velocity. That would be the old round nose soft point. The ones that struck target at 200 yards were authoritative.(steel plate) I eventually sold the rifle to a collector who needed it far worse than I did.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Any body ever shoot one of these? Seems like every one I've looked at is either broken, missing parts, or just too rough to mess with!

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According to the Marines who used them in the Spanish American War, the Lee was a great rifle as long as you didn't pull out the bolt, something that you apparently could do in the heat of battle. Then what happened is you lost the extractor in the grass/dirt/sand.

The Spanish Commander at Guantanamo said in his report, one of the reasons he abandoned his position was that the Americans had machine guns!

jn

Looked at one yesterday that's in nice shape except the extractor juts flops about when the bolt is pulled back, apparently some little leaf sring is gone from the rear of the extractor. Anyway, its the best built design disaster I've seen in a military rifle accected for service! Yikes!!! Its so bad that its intriguing. Don't know price yet, though, enthusiasm may evaporate quickly if its too many "monies".

I just got one a couple of weeks ago. Complete and original but not as nice as I was expecting from the sellers description. It is cleaning up pretty nice though, the bore is not melted at all but it is dirty. Still have to pull the action out of the stock and detail that, took me a few hours to figure out how to get the bolt out and back in and also to strip it down and clean and lubricate it. Sort of reminds me of cleaning up my frist CMP Garand, just dirty and grungy from storage.

Just got the book from Amazon and leafed through it. Talked to Buffalo and all of thier 6mm Lee Navy reloading/ammo items are in stock. This is fun! :rofl:

The one I'm lusting after has a great bore, except for the last 3/8" or so. Ran the bore scope in from the muzzle- no fouling, sharp riflling, only the teenest bit of pitting. Eyeballed the breech end as the locking surface is above bore centerline; don't want to bend ste scope! Dunno if I'll end up w/ it- plenty of things on my plate already.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Looked at one yesterday that's in nice shape except the extractor juts flops about when the bolt is pulled back, apparently some little leaf sring is gone from the rear of the extractor. ".

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S&S firearms has remake extractors with the spring for the Win Lee. Ray
http://www.ssfirearms.com/download%20catalog.htm

Pic of Winchester Lee on SMLE forum under remington Lees

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Originally Posted by Kragnut

Just out of interest, does anyone make dies and brass for these? Is safe reloading info available for the .236?

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Originally Posted by GeneM

Phil Seiss at S&S is a great guy. He helped me with "The Winchester-Lee Rifle" book. He has reproduced many of the impossible to find W-L parts.

I have seen Mike Kokolus (Michael M. Kokolus Custom Gun Stock Duplicating) repro Winchester-Lee stock at the Syracuse, NY Gunshow and it is also top notch. I have ordered one from him to restock my first Winchester-Lee. The wood has been cut down and sanded to a sporter - sort of. It is the rifle that started me on my quest for Winchester-Lees so after almost 50 years it will be restored.

GeneM
The Winchester-Lee Rifle
The Remington-Lee Rifle

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GeneM:
I think I may have ordered your book the other day from Amazon. I just rec'd today (I know it is four months from your post) an 1895 Winchester Lee second contract....but no extractor or spring. The bolt just fell out!
However, I looked up your reference to S and S and they have a reproduction part. I have written my own book and know exactly how
folks can help (and how hard it is).
I am a bit curious if the second contract, ordered on February 7, 1898, just a week before the Maine blew up (odds are it wasn't a mine or a coal fire--think I have it figured out), saw delivery before the end of the war (but I guess I can wait for the book to come in).
My stock seems like very good quality wood and is old, but is awful rough, not sure if it because it has dried out or maybe Banner replaced the stocks...fit seems good. I bought the rifle because I have never gotten to even handle one and am about to finish a book on the USS Texas (1898ish Texas) which includes significant support of the Marines at Guantanamo. Have written an article on the Colt Automatic Machine Gun (used by the Navy/Marines with the Lee) at the spanish american war centennial site.
My published book is Battleflags of Texans in the Confederacy, Eakin Press, 1995 (yeah I am from Texas ya'll). Thanks for the referral on the parts. Interestingly I found an 1898 Article on the Lee which I contributed to the SpanAmWar website that mentions that it was easy to allow the bolt to fall out and when it did the extractor would fall out and get lost! Here I go and buy a rifle with just that problem...and I can see how easy it is to drop the bolt, just as described in the article! Look forward to your book...maybe it's in the mailbox now, going to go check! I always get a book after I buy a gun...sometimes wish though that I had bought the book BEFORE buying the gun.

Al Sumrall
alsumrall2001@yahoo.com

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Originally Posted by rayg

Try S&S firearms parts. They have lots of Win Lee Navy repro parts. Download the catalog and look for the Win Lee parts on pg 26, Ray

Download Catalog

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A frrind just bought a Lee Navy cut down. Third shot the firing pin broke. The above link provided us with two new origional pins. We were very pleased. I did weld up the one that broke but now he has a couple of spares. His rifle Serial # 16708 has a star on most parts. Anyone know what the star was for?

I believe the star is a Winchester proof mark. Ray

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Originally Posted by rayg

I believe the star is a Winchester proof mark. Ray

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Thanks.

I finally had some fairly good weather and went to the range to fire my Win Lee Navy to try out 20, 6mm rds from Buffalo and 20 rds from Obsolete ammo. Both lots being made from reworked 25/06 cases. A very generous gentleman had purchased twenty loaded rds from Buffalo Arms and also twenty from Obsolete Ammo and had them sent them to me in appreciation for finding a upper forearm for his Win. Lee Navy. I can't say enough of that generousity.
Anyway, I first fired two rds from the buffalo ones and both of them had split necks so I stopped shooting them imediately. The primers did not show any excessive pressure.
I then fired the twenty rds from obsolete Ammo and they performed nicely. As good as my old eyes could see the front sight. The groups weren't too bad from the bench with the forearm resting on a sand bag and you can see the lower shots were my sighting errors in not having the same high/low sight picture. I believe if I had a sled or a rear bag the groups would have really closed up. No split necks on those.

I pulled the Buffalo bullets and anealed the necks on the Buffalo ones as the only thing I can think of is when they resized the cases to 6mm, they didn't aneal the necks and the brass had gotten too hard from being reworked.
After which, I examined them and about 90% of the cases, even though unfired, had fine hair line cracks in the necks. The cracks were either there before I annealed them or the heat from the annealing them brought out the cracks the same as if you fired them.
Some of the cracks are hard to see in the photo but they are there. I will toss all the cases as I don't want to take a chance shooting any of them.
I advised the gentleman who purchased the cartridges from Buffalo arms to contact them and let them know of the problem and seek a refund or credit from them as the cartridgs were not cheap.

Also I had purchased a extractor from S&S a while ago as the one that was in the rifle had apparently broke and was repaired so I wanted one that didn't show repairs. The S&S one was in the rifle when I was shooting and it was extracting the cases but was not kicking the cases out of the rifle. I put the original one back in and it kicked the cases out real good about two feet out.
The spring on the repro is not strong enough to throw the cases out and it is made different in that the spring is located on the rear of the extractor were as the spring on the original is on the front of the extractor and is a much stronger spring.

ray,

looks like the rifle is shooting pretty well. Those groups would be OK at 100 yds from any military rifle, and yours will probably tighten up after 50-100 rounds. Supposedly you can make 6mm Lee cases by expanding the neck on .220 Swift. You might give it a try?

Bet you were the only shooter on the raNGE with one of those!

jn

jon that is only 50yrs and they measured 2-1/4" . That would'nt be that great if you doubled it for 100yrds. But then, we're not talking 3 or 5 shot groups but 9 and 10 shots. Considering that many rds were fired per group, that wouldn't be too bad.
I'm sure someone with younger eyes could really close up the shot groups.
I have 50, 220 cases that the same gentleman sent me also and I shot a few of them to see how they work before I shot the Buffalo and Obsolete ones. The 220 cases worked real well. I use just .243 dies for neck sizing for both the 25/06 cases and the 220 ones, Ray

Ray,

here's a tip for "old eyes." Go to the drugstore and get some weak reading glasses, strong enough to sharpen up your close-up vision, not strong enough to make your distance vision too blurry. I use the 1s.

Use a match to blacken up the front sight.

I'll bet that will help you get the best out of that old rifle!


jn

Thanks jn. I had a small magnifying glass that attached to the side of your eye glasses ear stems and positioned the magnifying glass in the front of the glasses for doing close work. I removed the glass and replaced it with a disk that had a small hole in it that was like a peepsight. Kind of a home made job but by Looking through the peep hole, it greatly improved the focus of the front sight blade.
I think they sell items like that for improving your shooting if I recall. Ray

I sent photos of the cases with the splits in the necks to Buffalo arms and followed up with a phone call and explained the situation. They said they would get back to me. When they called back, they asked how they could satisfy me. I could have another box, credit, or whatever. Apparently they must have checked some of the same lots of that ammo which probably showed the same problem. Anyway I still had the bullets, powder and primers I removed from the cases so I said to just send me 20 new cases and I'll load them up. Ray