M1A Kaboom

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This rifle belongs to a friend. It happened some months ago, and I only have these pics and second hand story. Rifle was a new SA M1A, 14X,XXX I think.

They were shooting Cabela's factory remanufactured .308 ammo from the bench, 165gr bullets w/ Lake City cases. The case blew at the case head, and blew the stock up into several pieces. No known damage to steel parts other than magazine floor blown out. Shooter got blowback, but no injury. This was second shot from rifle, bullet scored hit next to first shot at 100yd.

Owner thinks it did not chamber fully and fired out of battery, does not think it was a slam file. SA took the rifle back and told the owner that the ammo was overcharged or faulty. The chamber was relatively clean, rifle had grease in right places, no obvious defects with ammo or rifle externally.

Pics are not the best, any opinions welcome. Would an out of battery fire be likely? Sensitive primer? Despite being a LC case, I tend to think it could have been a case failure.

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He should know if it was a slam fire by whether or not he pulled the trigger to shoot or it went of without trigger input immediately following the first shot.

Can he remember the circumstances to confirm this?

... have a conversation with Mr. Cabela.:ugh:

most educational!
Check ammo before shooting.
Check chamber before shooting.
Check bolt, firing pin, extractor, ejector, and that anatomy portion that requires both hands behind back, palms forward-just below the waist!
Scary, and this is not the first time I have heard of this.
So far this has been second hand knowledge.
I hope to keep it that way.
Ammo supplier help any?
Thanks, Paul
Houston, Texas

Stevo thx much for helping with the pics! You have a good point about a slam fire, I should have known better. Owner says for sure the second shot was a normal trigger pull, so sounds like it could not have been a slam fire.

He did not notice a bolt stuck open or any issues prior to pulling trigger. He thinks it fired out of battery. Owner did not get rifle checked by independent gunsmith before sending back to SA. SA said it was the ammo, not sure if he sent them the case with the rifle. Owner says the rifle was fairly clean and lubed. SA Factory did not state anything about a dirty chamber or dry rifle in their feedback to the owner after examining it. There is no explanation why the round would not have fully chambered.

Based upon M1 and M1A mechanisms, what is likelihood of bolt sticking open and getting an out of battery fire upon trigger pull? Anyone ever hear of that happening? I tested my M1A on an empty case. When out of battery, my M1A will let the hammer fall, there is a loud click, but hammer will not strike firing pin, or the firing pin will not hit the primer. My understanding is that this is an intentional safety design to prevent out of battery firing.

Owner has the rest of the ammo back at his farm, never been used. When he goes back home and returns, he will bring them down and I am going to weigh them on the digital scale and look them over for him. I forgot to ask if he has the exploded case, if so I will ask him to bring it too to see if I can post a better pic of it. Thx

You're welcome.:) To display the pics inline just put https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif on either side of the full photobucket link manually or copy the address with the tags already included from links under the pic in your photobucket album.

I'm not intimately familiar with the M1A but, like you said, I'm positive it's designed to prevent an out of battery ignition. IMO, that leaves two possibilities:
1) Case failure on a closed bolt.
2) Mechanical failure/malfunction in the trigger group or bolt leading to out of battery ignition.

I can't see how "overcharged" ammo would leave the rifle mechanically intact, yet blow out the mag and crack the stock.

I'm not an expert nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, so all opinions are for entertainment purposes only.;)

Pardon me if I bore everyone (again) with my M-14 blowup story. One of my fellow squaddies at ROTC summer camp, 1970 at Fort Sill, was messing with his rifle. He took the contents of two or three other blanks, and topped off a round of 7.62 blank ammo with blank powder. Then, he put a twig in the end to "hold the powder in". He poo-pooed my suggestion this was not a safe thing to do. Did I mention the rifle had a BFA on it? We were doing a night raid patrol. At the rally point he came walking up holding the 3 main groups of the rifle and bleeding from his left forearm. The damage was identical to this except the lower third of the bolt face was blown out and the rifle was frozen - action could not be opened. Anyway word was they condemned that lot of blank ammo. BTW, none of us ratted on him. On the basis of my one witnessed M-14 blow-up; I suspect excessive pressure on this M-1A one, just not as bad as the overcharged Fort Sill blank-blow-up was. Suspect Cabelas just had one hot one.

Griff:

Well, then ... that's TWO M14's that have been blown up with blanks. The Rocket Scientists at the Navy Honor Guard (Washington DC) tried exactly the same stunt around 1988 or 89. I got to examine the pieces at Crane.

The bolt face of the M1 and M14 do not support the case head very completely. If there is a case head failure for any reason, the pressure is vented below the bolt into the mag well, causing the damge noted here. The extractor is usually blown off as well, but not always.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Let's hope it was just one, for the sake of everybody shooting those reloads. I've seen similar malfunctions with "hot" 7.62 x 51 ammo from other countries (some South American stuff that made it in during the '80's was notorious for case separations), but Lake City brass is thick and durable. Like any brass, it can get old & brittle, but I'd more likely suspect an overcharge. If SA, Inc. replaces the stock and anything else that needs it, I'd call that charity, or a "customer relations" gesture.

I had an out of battery incident with my NM AR rifle. I was having problems with my reloads chambering, and thinking that I sized them wrong, used some new factory (not reloaded seconds) ammo. On the second shot the case head blew, got a big puff of gas in the face, and the rifle was locked up solid. We (it was a team effort) managed to get the bolt open by repeatedly banging the buttstock on the grass, and only the extractor was damaged(bent). My theory is that I had a piece of "something" (either a piece of a cleaning patch, or a piece of grass) stuck in the chamber, and that is why my reloads would not chamber. Replaced the extractor and it ran fine. Even a case head separation would not cause this with a regular load of powder, but an overload can blow the rear of the case off and cause damage.

My best guess is that either it was an overload, or the bolt was not fully in battery because the case was not sized properly.

SA concluded it was a hot round. They agreed to send him and M21 upgrade for $400 bucks more. He has no beef with SA. He (and I) would like to know if an out of battery malfunction firing (not a slam fire) is even possible. I think it very hard to do with the M1 & M1A designs, but don't know much about that and hope never to test it with a live round.

Although I think you get it, just for the record I'll restate that it was "factory remanufactured" ammo, not a home reload. Owner said he thinks it is very hard to overcharge a .308. I certainly think it is possible to overcharge a
.308 case, although I have never tried it and do not intend to do what some of those young guys in the previous stories did :-). It is harder to do than in a large volume round like 30-06.

If he still has the blown case, I will get it an post better pics later. He has all the original ammo from that lot and has no intention of shooting it. When I get them, I will check that stuff out with some "non-destructive" measurements just for the heck of it. I would think that if there was some kind of incipient head separation prior to firing, the case might still have some indications of that, although with a LC case, would think that to be less likely.

This just gives one pause and reinforces the need for caution, and its closer to home when you find out it happened to someone you know with the same kind of rifle you own. I reload all my M1A ammo other than some high quality Aussie mil surplus occasionally, and follow some pretty rigorous safety procedures. I had at one time been on a quest on how to make brass cases last as long as possible, in future I'll just limit the number of reloads of my brass to a reasonable number and call it good :-)

I had a compleate case head separation on a 5.56 round fired full auto in a M-16. It was one of my own reloads and was caused by the case's shoulder having been set back too far. The OAL was correct but the Dillon 1200 auto trim die was set too far in and was creating a head space problem. Fortunately for me the next round did not fire out of battery. I quickly decided to no longer shoot reloads or remans in my expensive NFA registered guns. Nowadays even SA M1A's fall into that category! Saving a few cents per round just isn't worth the risk.
:nono:

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Originally Posted by Gun Surfer

He has no beef with SA. He (and I) would like to know if an out of battery malfunction firing (not a slam fire) is even possible.

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Yes....yes it is, particularly with a Springfield Armory M1A cast receiver (he may have more of a beef with SA than he is aware of!). SA has had a chronic problem consistently getting the firing-pin retraction bridge located exactly in their raw castings. In their defense, to fully function, that bridge has to be in EXACTLY the right location....+- nothing, for the safety bridge to fully and completely function. If its off even a touch (and many are), the firing pin can extend far enough out-of-battery to light the primer. 99.99% of the time, any slight mislocation of the bridge doesn't cause the slightest trouble....then there's that 0.01%!

Here is a similar story with a professional examination by Clint McKee

http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html

Gun Surfer
Was the remanufactured ammo by Ultra Max?

According to the Springfield Armory's own documentation " the use of reloaded or remanufactured ammunition VOIDS the guarantee...".

Given that your friend used "Cabela's factory remanufactured .308 ammo" HE HAS NO RECOURSE through Springfield.

The manufactures have specific do's and don't clauses in their warranties for a reason.

Sounds like Springfield was VERY generous in their offer of a repair and or upgrade of the rifle for a fee.

They could have said "you are S O L, now go away!"

Glad your friend was not hurt.

The picture of the case is indistinct. I see rim edges, so I am going to assume that part of the case head came off.

The damage I see is consistent with a gas leak in an unsupported area of the case.

I have seen .223 cases that the rim tore off (but not completely) and blew the magazine out of the rifle.

The .223 cases were surplus brass from Scharch. A fellow shooter who had also purchased Scharch .223 brass examined the case I brought from the line. He said the rupture through the case head was similiar to brass failures he had.

(and this will blow your minds, it happened to two AR15 on the same 300 rapid fire relay. The rifles and ammunition were provided by a club member to two new shooters. Each rifle fed the next round into chamber, even though the magazines were blown out of each rifle. :madsmile: And the fellow who previously had failures with Scharch brass, he had experienced the same phenoma)

You just don't know what that once-fired brass was fired out of or how long it sat on the ground before someone picked it up. Sometimes you don't know if it is even really only once fired. It could be someone's cast off junk that somebody else picked up and sold.

Hey Five O, you are psychic. The ammo that blew the gun was NOT Ultra Max. However, my friend has some boxes of Ultra Max .308 in 165gr. He has recently asked me if it is ok to shoot it in an M1A. What say you?

Mr. Kepler: So an out of battery fire overcoming the M1A design is possible. Is this bridge out of place issue the only way in which this could happen?

wd0bcx: I hear what you are saying, I read the mfg literature too. However, I have as much or more confidence in my reloads than most factory ammo. As I said my qc process is pretty thorough. Reloading is worth the risk for me, the risk is calculated and low, but never taking anything for granted and always learning.

After reading thus far, I am leaning toward a failed case / an overloaded case.

I dont use rifle "range brass", and after reading all these posts, wont ever bother picking up any rifle brass unless its my own!

Thanks all for your responses thus far.

I'm not sure why you are so willing to blame an "overload" or a ruptured case....it just isn't all that consistent with the damage in the photos. Like any old M14 comp shooter, I've had my share of full and/or partial case-head separations (too many trips to the well with weakened M852 brass)...NONE of them failed to completely obturate the bore in a fully and correctly functioning rifle in good condition with good barrel/chamber and "in-spec" headspace! The fact that a separated case is usually nothing more than a minor PITA, NOT a busted rifle is indicated by the fact that the military issued "broken-shell extractors" rather than large trash-bags!

No sir...the damage to the rifle is much more consistent with an excessive headspace and/or that de-facto condition caused by a partially out-of-battery discharge (bolt locked, but not fully in battery) failing to fully support the case.

To answer your direct question, in the main, yes....though it can also happen with a broken firing pin....a condition you did NOT report!

It should be all right just visually inspect each round. If you goggle ultra max ammo problems you will see some have had issues but no more than other brands.

Five o thanks will do.

Mr. Kepler, I am leaning that way, not fully convinced one way or the other. The factory stated that as the cause, and they had access to more information and expertise than me, however granted they are potentially biased. I would hope this relatively new rifle had its headspace checked prior to leaving teh factory. More information regarding potential causes / historical causes of out of battery firing would be helpful. Had this happened to me and assuming I lived to tell, I would have sought an independent expert if at all possible to evaluate the rifle in addition to the factory. Not having ever been in that position, not sure how practical that would be in real life. Meanwhile, I will keep digging for info as I have time.

Couple-three things:

I'd be curious to know if all the "remanufactured" ammunition used cases with the same headstamp and date.

A buddy had an overload using factory ammunition in his bolt-action 270 a few years ago. Locked up the bolt, had to beat it open, case was stuck. Probably a few other details I've forgotten. Other rounds from the same box were fine up to that point. It was either Remington or Winchester ammo, I forget which, but one of those two.

Whilst calling the line at a 100-yard reduced range match a few years ago, a shooter who was firing "out of competition" switched to his 308 SSG bolt gun for the prone slow fire match, and proceded to lock up his rifle on the first shot. I looked at his ammunition box and saw that he was running 168-grain SMK's on top of 48.0 grains of IMR 4895 and swore out loud. Might be a little hot, he said. Ya think? said I.

Point is......and not necessarily related to whatever really caused this rifle to come unzipped.....there's really no telling what's inside that case when it comes right down to it, unless you actually put it there. Even then, your procedures need to be scrupulous. Most of you already know and practice this......or at least the rest of us hope you do. By the way, I make it a point to try to not be placed adjacent to that gentleman with the SSG. Not his first adventure into high pressure territory, nor his last. Ya follow?

M1A ser#143820 fired out of battery. Synthetic stock faired better. How far into 140k was this rifle?

Friend says remanufactured ammo were LC cases, did not say what year, or if they were all same year, but definitely Cabellas remanufactured 165gr from a few years ago. There are some left and I will get a look at the rest of them when he brings them here from his farm.

Cecil, his rifle was 148k. Can you tell what caused the out of battery fire in the 143k? Was there a tech evaluation of the rifle and case? Assume it was not a form of slam fire (you purposely pulled trigger on a chambered rd when it blew)? I am trying to get a handle on how an M1A can fire out of battery, or how the mechanism can "fail". Sounds like from what Kepler is saying previously, improper headspace and perhaps a broken firing pin can cause it.

Found the info below in a old 1995 internet post attributed to Clint McKee of Fulton Arms. He was responding to question about Norinco M14 clones. It gives some clue as to what MIGHT go wrong in an M14 design, not any reflection on other M1As. Not sure it still applies to Norinco rifles, others would know more about that. The firing pin bridge is mentinoned:

"1. The bolts are much too soft & the helix angle on the bolt lugs are flat
wrong. These 2 maladies together cause the bolt to collapse against the
receiver lugs and excessive headspace occurs. Possible catastrophic
failure. 2. Overall bolt body/firing pin geometery is wrong. The M14
has several "fail safe" designs, including a firing pin bridge that
*retracts* the firing pin on loading a live round until the bolt is
in/near battery. The Chinese bolts are so long that the firing pin tail
barely/does not engage the bridge, thereby preventing proper firing pin
retraction. Catastrophic failure is again encouraged. 3. Hammer &,
trigger & sear are too soft. Premature wear will ensue (as little as
1000 rounds) causing a dangerous & possibly catastrophic failure.
To properly remedy these flaws, the bolt must be replaced with a G.I.
bolt & properly fitted to the receiver. Unfortunately, a G.I. spec
barrel must also be installed to accomodate proper fitment of the bolt.
Several other barrel components must also be replaced to accomodate
thread differences. The Chinese hammer &, trigger & sear must also be
replaced with G.I. parts. Properly done, these repairs will usually
transform the Chinese rifles into a fine, reliable M14 clone. Much has
been said re the receivers. Metalurgically, only time will tell. No one
really knows exactly what kind of steel they are made from."

A M1 or M1A/M14 can fire in an unlocked condition. How do I know - Been There-Done That! About 18 years ago I was firing some reloads (mine naturally!) in a standard M1A. I had a situation where the case was not sized properly and did not chamber completely. Instead of throwing it away I stupidly rechambered it. It fired when I pulled the trigger but the bolt was not locked. The result was a complete case head separation thew follower was blown out the bottom of the magazine and the stock was cracked on the side. Other wise the rifle was not damaged. If I had been using the mag as a palm rest I would have been shy a few fingers. When ever I see someone using the mag as a rest either on a M1A or AR I suggest that is not a good idea. I beleive that the only way a M1A or M1 can fire out of battery is a missized cartidge or a really dirty chamber. The probability is not high as the rifle has to be in an almost locked condition but it can happen. Terry

Forgot to mention that I still have the rifle. I later sent it and a Macmiullan stock to Krieger and had them put a heavy barrel on it and convert it into a
M1A HBAR NM rifle. Still bring it out once year for our M1A match. Terry

If the bolt was closed and you pulled the trigger and it went Ka-Blam the bolt was closed enough. The hammer cannot physically hit the firing pin unless the bolt is rotated into battery. The hammer will actually cam the bolt closed if it isn't quite all the way rotated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LTCJohnston

A M1 or M1A/M14 can fire in an unlocked condition. Terry

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Not if the hammer is serviceable, A Garand/ M1a will not fire if the bolt isn't rotated into battery, the nose on the hammer will hit the flat back of bolt preventing it from hitting firing pin. If the bolt is rotated partially the nose of hammer will actually cam bolt closed as it hits.

Take your " Empty " rifle cock it and hold op-rod back till bolt is forward but not rotated watch through side and pull trigger and watch what the hammer does....

If and only if that retraction bridge in the receiver is positioned correctly....locating that bridge with the required precision has been a rather chronic problem with SA receivers.

The recvr bridge isn't the only safety design feature with the M1/M14, J. Garand was a smart guy...

People really need to regularily inspect their rifles, if the safety nose on hammer is broke off or severely peened down replace it, foot of firing pin badly worn replace it .... and stop shooting bad reloads and Mystery ammo....