Printable View
I heard from my local shop that they are expecting a bunch of Garands from their importer. They expect them to arrive in a month or so. They have no idea where they are being imported from. Does anyone know if they are Dutch, Italian, etc. ???
My imagination is running rampant and hoping they are NOS originals in the grease lend-lease from Russia! :madsmile: Yeah right....
They said based on their cost, they will be starting from $700, and up depending on condition.
If it's true, they won't be Dutch. Could be almost anything else though.
Speaking of the Dutch, my son in law's father used a Garand and an M-1 carbine during his military service in the Netherlands. He quite liked them.
I've been hearing the same thing. A friend of mine said that over 100K would be coming into circulation, I can't say for sure when this is going to happen, but, I'm saving up-SDH
If 100,000 come into circulation, I doubt they will get $700 for them. In fact, it should markedly drop the going rate as availability will exceed demand, at least for a time.
100,000 Garands = 99,000 for US market (if importable) + 1000 for the Cdn market.
Cannot import Garand into the US. Lend lease cannot come back into the US. At least thats what I was told at auctions when worrying about US folks bidding on US firearms. Didn't Century Arms (Montreal) get busted for that? Claven2 says something about it here (or at least thats how I took it): https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=347
Also, if they are from Russia, they for sure won't be seen in the US.
I think the US import rules depend a lot on whether or not the rifles were sold or lend/leased. If they're lend/leased then the US Gov. never lost ownership of them and they can be re-imported. Didn't the last batch of CMP Garands come from Greece? Please correct me if I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.;)
Besides, you'd have to sell them for $99.99 if you wanted to move that many in just the Canadian market.
And even at that price, most Cdns would expect 500 rounds of ammo on pingys and in bandoleers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
1000 rifles is a lot in our market.
The problem is that US rules won't let rifles back into the states if the taxpayers lent or gave the rifles to someone for free. They had to be SOLD to another country (taxpayers compensated) before a 3rd party can re-import them.
If they were never "bought off" then they can only come back if the foreign gov't gives them back and they then get sold through CMP.
Some rules may have changed though as last year a whack of Savage No.4's went back to the US, where before it was not allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
You are correct, the last batch was from Greece.
LI
The CMP had to get special authorization to bring in that batch of M-1s. The rifles could not have been commercially imported. The ones currently being advertised by the CMP are described as being from US sources. The Cdn. market can only absorb limited numbers, compared to the US. The rapid price increase for M-1s in Canada suggest that there is demand, but how many rifles would it take to meet that demand? Most of the Danes that came into Canada were broken for their parts, and shipped to the US as kits, to be assembled on commercial receivers there.
I think our market could absorb 5-10k Garands, depending on price of course. The interest and demand has gone way up recently.
If they were good quality and priced around $500 I'd guess at a market of less than 3k rifles. Under $300 and I'd say 10k rifles.
Interest and demand HAVE increased. But 20 000 plus Danes got broken for parts kits, they were more salable as parts in the US than as rifles in Canada.
Dealer cost on the Danes ranged from $125 to $250 or so. The cheapest were perfectly servicable rifles, showing some wear and tear, the more expensive were the really nice rebuilds, unfired since new barrels were fitted and all metal was reparked.
If the price was comparable, decent M-1s would sell just as well as the M305s have. Personally, for the same money, I think a clean M-1 is a better rifle than a 305.
Receivers for $99 would get sold quickly here too.
Thats true too. I totally forgot about parts kits. According to my shop, $700 hundred is as low as they can go, I have no idea what typical markup is, but I'm sure the importer had it all figured out when he bought a bunch. I'm sure he's not crazy enough to buy them all if he can't liquidate them.
Given all the on-line bitching about current Garand prices, I can't see the market absorbing all that many at $700 retail.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoggie
Many rumors going around at the local gunshows. NOTHING IS IN STONE!. Quantities expected are running from 5K to 100K. The fellow I talked to was dead certain the number would be quite high and the conditions would vary greatly, who knows for sure. I wish I had friends in customs, they would have the first hand info on how many and who's getting them. 5k wouldn't budge the market, 50K would, Hum, I'm still saving up-SDh
We got a couple of Savage Enfields marked US PRORERTY. They came from Century WITHOUT the import marks. I was told they were made here so they were not subject to the rules of marking for "imports".Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
If those Garands can go stateside, the majority will. Dealers are smarter these days. Outfits like Marstar will retain only enough units in Canada to keep the prices over $500ea. and trickel them out over the next few years. The remainder would go to CAI or Inter-Ord in the US to be sold fast and cheap.
Sad but true.
If any more than 1000 or so Garands come to Canada, I predict the prices would rapidly drop to the $300 range in the short term as supply would exceed demand. Remember, the number of M1 enthusiasts in Canada who have both money and an acquisition license is likely not as high as most people think, especially since most people who want one already have a nice example or two from the imports a few years back.
For the record, Garands (if they are really coming) are not the only popular milsurp semis coming into Canada in the near future. But I can't say much more - sorry ;)
:bash:Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Given the use of "popular" and "semi" it narrows down your teaser to a few choices, doesn't it?:p I certainly don't expect you're refering to a container load of Ljungman's.;)
M1 carbine or some euro SKS? not many choices really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
Nah, wasn't thinking of either of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiG25
Stop fishing - my lips are sealed. And no, not Ljungmans.
popular, semi's, I know Claven isnt talking, but a guessing game is always fun.
I doubt it will be g43's, they arent in enough hands to be popular, despite being in high demand.
m1 carbines maybe, everybody loves a carbine.
Garands are probably the most popular semi auto.
Svt40's are still cheap enough in Canada, so I doubt it will be those.
fn49's maybe... however I wouldnt be surprised if it was a bunch russian sks's, to replace the chinese ones.
Well, I wouldn't mind if they were Garands. I should probably have one US milsurp in my collection.
STG44's.........i would like to get one of those....but alas we may not see them;) .Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Stg44's WILL arrive - it's a done deal. But no, I wasn't referring to newly made copies of WW2 German stuff.
I wonder if we are going to be seeing more of those Pacific rim numbers we saw back in the 1980's. There was a hole bunch of bottom feeders coming from there, but, I do recall seeing a couple of nice ones in the mix-SDH
Are they making copies of the WWII Assault rifle? and are they in semi only or just display models??Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
They are semi-automatic copies of the originals. Exact in every way except for no "rock N Roll" setting.
So far, only available in Germany and Canada. Possibly they could end up stateside at a later date pending BATF approvals, etc. Will have to wait and see.
Not cheap at $3000 each.
Check them out here: http://www.marstar.ca/gf-SSD/SSD-BD-MP44.shtm
When and if they show up I hope they are in better cond. than the last batch I went through. A few years back Gobels had a crap load of them and if I remember correctly they were going for $199.00 a piece. I spent a whole day and looked at 36 different rifles and could not find a single rifle that a reasonable bore. At the $$$ they are going for now I wish I had bought the whole lot of them. Remember Lever Arms family pack of garands and SKS???
I am keen to obtain a nice M1 garand for a nice shooter and the ping of course thats worth the money ,I would of course lovingly take care of it , it certainly wouldnt be a safe queen . and Edmonton isnt that far away for me to get one . I was told $600-$700 is gonna be the price range .I already got some 5 rd clips comming ,i know they are legal for 8 but i dont wanna shoot off 8 rnds between the pings . Hell i might even get some 2 round clips and ping my self silly .
I have wanted one for a while but always seem to miss the boat on the various forums when they come up .
Ok question( dumb probably) :- Is there such a thing as surply ammo for the beast , i know there is ****e loads of Greek in the states , but what about Kanuckistan ?
While were talking about clasic US battle Rifles but a tad off topic . are there any non restricted M1 carbines about and what do they go for .
M1 Garands. If another batch comes to Canada, V.good cond.$600 will be the ball park price. Add tax,S.&H. and total will be $700 each.
What happened to all of the Garand recievers from the rifles that were stripped for parts for the US market?
My understanding is that lever still has a couple hundred of them for $40 each. They are all Breda made though.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckbrush
I've got them.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by buckbrush
LI
I trained on the M1. On the firing line at Fort Knox, at the time, the sound made by the ejecting enbloc charger was described as a "Bink", but the charger itself was not called a "Binky"; which word had already been co-opted to describe a suckling infant's pacifier. Earlier in this thread I saw the enbloc called a "Pingy", a neologism new to me, but uniquely pertinent. We don't get to speak much of the Queen's English down here, and I thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by dances with gophers
An acquaintance of mine worked with the inventor, a Canadian, and claimed that he pronounced his name "GOWrand". Everyone here says "guhRAND", and I have long since tired of disputing them.
I was in the right place years back with money and managed to corner a nice old SA WWII and one each nice Breda and Beretta. I stopped drinking 33 yrs ago and smoking about 23 yrs ago and spend the money on guns and ammo. Oh, for the days when Lever, Century, Marstar, Districorp would advertise the old milsurps and ammo galore. I bought some nice stuff from all those companies. Cheap, too!! I still buy, as I've finally figured I won't live forever - quite!!
Very interesting coincidence. You better me by exactly three years in each category.Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn
Also, I have it on good authority that, if you can also manage to stop consorting with tattooed women, there is no end in sight. I'm still trying to deal with that one. One day at a time.
Maybe Marstar will be getting some of those Norinco's that look like the Tavor but i can't remember their name...hopefully
That is the term around here for them. I did not realise it was not universal in it's application.Quote:
I trained on the M1. On the firing line at Fort Knox, at the time, the sound made by the ejecting enbloc charger was described as a "Bink", but the charger itself was not called a "Binky"; which word had already been co-opted to describe a suckling infant's pacifier. Earlier in this thread I saw the enbloc called a "Pingy", a neologism new to me, but uniquely pertinent. We don't get to speak much of the Queen's English down here, and I thank you.
If I called it an enbloc, people would look at me like I had two heads. Perhaps that is the difference between having a surplus rifle which was widely used by ones country (USA) vs having a surplus rifle that was very infrequently used by ones country (Cdn). The official terms don't make it in to civilian use as readily.
Canada had a small quantity of M1s in the 50s when we were going to align ourselves more with the US equipment, but when the US opted out of the FN project, we went our seperate ways. The few M1s that were in Cdn service were relegated to airbase guard duties in Germany, and phased out by the early 60s.
Nor into military use, either. We called it a "clip", knowing that that description was precisely incorrect. I can't remember ever hearing the word "enbloc" spoken in American English. It may be French in origin and down here we might have trouble holding our mouths right to pronounce it. I used it here and in postings on similar forums only because the collectors of surplus military arms seem to delight in interminable discussions of whether or not a particular loading accessory is a "clip" a "charger" a "magazine" or a "feeding tube"; which discussion I was trying to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by stencollector
If I was running short and needed one, I'm sure I would ask my buddy to "toss me a clip". .....or a pingy!
Hum, Around the tool room the word "clip" applies to a device that holds things in place with spring tension and an Enbloc is part of a design that ensures stoppage. With that thought, would not this device be considered an Enbloc "CLIP" purely by nature of design? I'm quite accustomed to using the abbreviated version "CLIP" because that shoe fits better, F.W.I.W.-SDH
I got some more information about the Garands. I was able to find out they are comming in from Europe, and that my local shop ordered over 100 of them (in their first batch). So there should be plenty to go around. Hopefully they are pretty. I thought all of Europe got rid of their Garands, but I guess not.
Do we have an approximate ETA yet?
No exact ETA, but they are hoping early June.
I'm still kicking myself for not getting 1 or 2 or the $200 Breda special Marstar had a few years ago... I guess I shouldn't miss out this time.
I talked to my buddy this weekend whom is well connected with the import world. He is the fellow who first told me of the large import of M1's. He swears they are still on the way but that U.S. customs was having a bit of an issue with the shipment.SDH
A large lot was seized from a now defunct army surplus store in Toronto.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckbrush
I just wanna bump this thread up again...hoping for any more details....rumors...just make something up...I can't wait....feeling like a kid before x-mas...in June I hope.
It's Marstar, they don't do prompt dates. Not their fault, just saying. :)
Lend lease is very involved and I had a copy of the contract some years ago. It appears that the US has written off some the lend lease arms, and I suspect that the UK making the final payment of their war dept had something to do with it. I know where was a flurry of gun import restrictions about the time the final UK payment was made. The warehouses of arms in the UK (of all nations) could choke a horse. I've seen piles of 34's.42's. MP 38's,40's, 41's, Stens, Lanchesters, Beretta SMG's Scorpions, Lee Enfields piled from floor to ceiling for acres. One pile of 25,000 AK's, Vicker Berthiers and another pile of over 5,000 Vickers ...most BRAND NEW, along with tripods in the coffin. Enough to make a man weep, as they were all going to the deac artists and being cut up for side plate guns for the US market. Forgot the warehouse of BAR's in Belgium that was almost the size of 7 Supply Depot in Edmonton. (7 Supply is BIG !!!!!)
Many countries sell of their surplus items to collectors, after museums get first crack. I have done the paperwork for several museums in Canada for items that would "knock your socks off" and the prices are less than scrap metal. I'd give some prices, but probably would have a few dealers sending "Vinney" from Break a Leg Finance to visit me, if I did. The AK's however, were $25.00 US FOB source, and were new in the box.
I did hear some more, apparently they are still in Europe, and are currently hung up crossing customs somewhere on the way to port, so they haven't even left Europe yet (that should narrow down the originating countries). Once they hit the ocean they should know from their supplier, and they expect 6 weeks to get accross and to get placed into the database. They are telling me to keep saving up my money though, because they expect them during August.
Thanks for the update, maybe by August, I'll ba able to buy a couple!
Are they USGI or new made?
I'm not sure if they're USGI, but they did tell me they are military surplus. I hope they're WWII US, because thats what I'm after.
Well, one thing is for certain, if even 500 or so pieces come to Canada, Garand prices will plumet on the secondary market. Right now a handful of guys are paying premium prices driving up the market value, but new imports will satisfy all the short term demand.
The importers better not be planning to charge mare than about $400 or they'll be sitting on some of these rifles for quite some time IMHO.
We shall see. Reason I asked is that John had been hinting that he was going to have new Garands built for Marstar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
IMO, if they're in VG or better condition, 500 would be sold out quickly at $500 retail. A lot of the examples selling in the $500-600 range right now aren't particularly nice.
Unless Norinco tools up, I can't imagine new build Garands coming in under $1k.
Well if a company tooled up and worked like Springfield Armoury did in World War 2 depending on what part of the War you want to talk about the rifles adjusted with inflation should be pretty cheap. :madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
In 1945 they were costing 27$ to build a Garand thats just under 300$ today. Realistically it cost Springfield Armoury once it did its expansion in 1940 80$ per M1 rifle produced to cover the costs in one year. Thats 886.04$ today. So I'm sure 1,000$ per rifle can be done. Just need to find a bank willing to finance a loan of about 31,816,779.74$ to produce 1,200 rifles per day. :yikes:
Dimitri
I don't think the Reese bros. are up to the task, especially when there are so many in circulation and there getting $899.00 for cast receiver knock off's-SDH
Almost here!
MilArm Co. Ltd :: Edmonton, Alberta
They are up on the P&S website now too.
Is may be my imagination, but when I take a real close look at the pic shown, many of these old girls seem to be pretty beat up for a $600-$800 price tag?
Is this an actual picture of the Garands being sold?
Regards,
Badger
It's not your imagination. P&S is listing them too as "worn finish with many dents and dings". At that price point, I'll be holding onto my money.
I wonder how much crush damage there is to stocks on the bottom of that stack? It is possible that they're mechanically excellent, but cosmetically beat from storage. Pretty dumb marketing move to use that pallet pic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
I certainly won't be spending any of my allowance at these prices.
The fact that there are IHC and HRA garands in the mix leads me to believe the WW2 era guns are almost certainly refurbs as whichever country got these were clearly supplied by the Americans AFTER the korean war.
More details where surely emerge about their origin in due course. My money is on either Italy or Turkey.
Is this right? :D
$600-800 opening price at Milarm?
Add $100 if its a WWII manufacture.
Add $50 if the rifle has rare markings.
Add $50 for hand select.
Regards,
Badger
I put money down on one, and will pick it up next week. Its WWII 6XX,XXX (mid 1942) Springfield with a June 1945 barrel - so an early refurb. The Parkarizing is about 75% and the stock was a properly marked dark walnut with a couple of minor dings that will clean up easy. Might be unfired since it was refurbed, because mine had cosmoline in the breach - but not anywhere else. Not perfect, but I figure I now have something to upgrade when the opportunity shows itself... and if it doesn't at least I have one a USGI one.
Apparently they are from the middle east - some have reminants of Arabic writing in paint. No import marks, no additional markings or serial numbers. They are all refurbs. Some have beech stocks on them, so they are definately sent there after 1960. My opinion of them is that they were thrown on the back of a camel and hauled around the desert. The reason I say this is there is no rust or pitting on any of them, but half showed only 50% finish on them. There were a couple that were completely in grease. and looked decent, but they were post war.
I wouldn't be surprised they're from Afghanistan. The reason I say that is this batch is all there is (so I'm told) - so what other Arabic country would only have a couple hundred to send? But thats just a guess.
Either way, if you're looking for a shooter, these are just that. If you're looking for a prized collectable, look elsewhere.
Any firearm that was 'loaned' on the U.S. Military Assistance Program is supposed to either be returned to the U.S. Government or with approval transferred to another country. They cannot be sold. The Greek and Danish M1 rifles and Italian M1 carbines were MAP weapons returned as the program intended. Some countries ignored the rules and sold them to wholesalers outside of the U.S. or destroyed them.
Best of luck with the M1 rifles hitting the market. Let us know what condition they are in!
The Shooting Edge in Calgary just got some Breda Garands in. They've been restocked and rebarreled to 7.62 NATO. They look nice but they're listed at $1399.:eek:
No idea where they came from.
Recently I've been told by a local importer here in NJ that these M1's will be handled through the CMP, meaning they did not end up in the hands of the importers for some reason. It is all very suspicious as to why this has happened!-SDH
The way the so-called "lend lease" works is that the items must first be offered back to the U. S. Government through our appropriate agency. In the case of firearms (small arms) it is usually the U.S. Army. They determine if there is a need or use for the items, If so they accept delivery/return. They then distribute the items to other agencies.
If the agency in question determines that there is no need for the items then that country's government that received the "loan" may dispose of the items as long as it is in accordance with the orginal agreement.
German refurbished Beretta and Breda garands, 308. New barrels/wood Got one, looks new, unfired. I need a very good reason not to go shoot it next sunny day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
This made me wonder:
Have any of the Italiian Typo II Garand conversions to 7.62x51 reached Canada? One way to ID the variation ( other than markings ) is that the Typo II barrel , op rod , stock , and lower handguard have been shorten by roughly a half inch. I have two Garand Typo II parts kits from sometime around 2002 to 2003. One has been running for years after assembly on a CMP reciever. The other is in a box (unassembled ) with a 2nd CMP reciever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevo
The only M1 rifles that are returned and handled by the CMP are still and always were US Army properly loaned via Foreign Aid. Breda and Beretta M1 rifles/receivers were never US Army property or US made. If a country includes Beretta or Breda receivers among their Foreign Aid rifles upon their return to the US Army, then it's purely accidental.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdh1911
Take the words of importers with a grain of salt, they lie and spread rumors all the time.
Just read the first page but, the rifles are coming from The Republic of South Korea. They just got State-Dept. permission to import 100,000 M1 Garands and a bunch of carbines.