Hi Guys
Is there any legitamate reason why a Lee Enfield No4 MK1* would be sold in the UK without a proofing mark on the bolt. The bolt I have is from the Italian navy and has no proof mark on it.
Regards Chubbs
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Hi Guys
Is there any legitamate reason why a Lee Enfield No4 MK1* would be sold in the UK without a proofing mark on the bolt. The bolt I have is from the Italian navy and has no proof mark on it.
Regards Chubbs
Proof marks can be in any place on the bolt, and are often feint & difficult to spot. Quite often with Italian proofs the bolt is missed.
German proofs can be very discrete or hideously large.
Hi Simon
So if the Italians don't proof mark their bolts how are they then sold in the uk without a mark?
Regards Chubbs
Providing the rifle is marked and its recorded as going through proof I wouldn't sweat it
Does it have a very faint proof marking at the base of the handle at the top, or underneath the handle on the flat.
Does the bolt match? Apparently when these rifles were sold off by the Italian authorities the bolts were dumped in a bin together and the rifles came separately, requiring a protracted process of sorting them out and matching them to their original rifles where possible. The Italian dealer had photos of this process on their website for a long time, and maybe still does?
Would Italian law require military weapons provided by NATO to be reproofed before service or before resale? Obviously they were proofed when manufactured originally.
Perhaps the bolt in your rifle is not the original?
Giove can perhaps tell us more?
Hi Guys
Mrclark 303 No proof mark anywhere and have been told it has not been through a uk proofing house.
Surpmil Bolt not original and has been matched to rifle with the receiver being renumbered. Even if the serial no's where matching it should still have a proof mark for the uk civilian market.
Anyone else in the UK not have a proofing mark on their Lee Enfield bolts ?
Regards Chubbs
The mark on my Austrian proofed No5 is tiny and very indistinct right at the top of the bolt handle. I had to stare at with a magnifying glass before I worked out what it was!
I seem to remember that we had another case like this recently, and if my brain cells have recorded it correctly, a replacement bolt must be renumbered to match the receiver, which Peter Laidler has told us often enough is the "master" component. Renumbering a receiver to match a bolt smacks of illegitimate Bubbary.
Changing the number on the receiver makes it a different rifle for proof and licensing purposes, i.e. a new proof becomes mandatory.
So receiver number altered + no proof mark = very, very dodgy.
Italy (as well as the United Kingdom, Belgium, France, Spain, Germany, Austria, etc.) applies the decisions of the C.I.P. (Standind Commission on the Proof of Portable Firearms - Commission Internationale Permanente), based in Rue Fond des Tawes, 45 - Liege (Belgium).
After passing the proof test, on the rifles (rifled barrel) the marks are punched on the barrel and on the action or on the bolt.
In Italy the "Bench of National Proof (B.N.P.) punched the rifles on the Barrel and on the Action (receiver).
Light weapons proof tested and punched in a State member of the CIP convention can be sold to any other member State.
Hi GloveQuote:
Originally Posted by giove
Thank you for your information. I have as you say the marks on the receiver and barrel but not on the bolt. I have contacted the Birmingham proof house and they say that there should be one on the bolt. Which is now confusing as I am sure you are right and we must have a reciprocal agreement with Italian guns. (Didn't have your info when I phoned them.)
The only question which puzzles me is why there are different standards within a international agreement with the uk seemingly inssisting on having an extra mark.
Regards Chubbs
Found this online might help?
http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf
http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF
Hi DanL96a1
Thanks for those. I had read through them and it is confusing to as whether the Italian practice of not proof marking their bolts is acceptable in the UK.
Regards Chubbs
It's always the way I'm afraid. Most follow the agreed CIP rules (sometimes not), proof marks should obviously be applied to all pressure baring components, or whats the point? As we have discussed many times before on here, it's a pointless anarchical process anyway, but it's an internationally agreed legal requirement, so that's that unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs
The issue might come when you sell it on Chubb's, I hope not, but it could be an issue.
Chubbs, try reading on page 4: proof test marks and data registration.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearin...o/genco_en.pdf
If the bolt does not have the same serial number as the rest of the rifle there is no guarantee that the gun has been proofed as a whole unit. In theory there should be proof marks on the barrel, action, bolt handle and bolt head.
All these are pressure bearing parts and can of course be changed independently of each other.
It is not unusual to find a miss matched rifle ie different serial numbers to the bolt and action but providing there are proof marks on the individual components then it is accepted that the rifle has been through proof as a unit.
I have also seen fully matched rifles that only have visible proof marks on the barrel and action with nothing visible on the bolt but as the numbers all match it is accepted that the rifle has been proofed as a unit.
There are in theory some very heavy fines for selling an un-proofed firearm in the UK, up to £1000 per transaction. From the description of your rifle and piece of mind I would suggest that you have your rifle checked to ensure that the bolt was properly "fitted" to the rifle and not just thrown in, get the headspace checked and then submit it to the proof house, that way you know that is safe to shoot and it fully complies with the UK proof laws.
Hi Guys
Having read
Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives
Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing
“Marking Firearms”
And Council Directive 91/477/EEC of 18 June 1991
and sought some further advice it now seems as though the following extract is the pertinent
Proof-test marks and data registration
In accordance with C.I.P. Decision XVII-11, the firearm is marked by the proof house with the internationally recognised proof-test marks if it has successfully passed all the previously mentioned tests:
1) On all firearms with the exception of revolvers: on each barrel action body, frame or essential item of the closing mechanism;
2) For revolvers: on the barrel, cylinder and frame;
3) An identification mark showing the year of manufacture will also be indicated on all firearms (this makes it easier to trace the firearm in subsequent years);
4) The barrel weight, internal diameter of each barrel and length of cartridge chamber must also be marked on smooth-bore firearms.
So despite what the uk proof house says the actual answer is that as long as it has been through a signatory (CIP) proof house it does not have to have a stamp on the bolt.
Regards Chubbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs
Yes.:thup:
What date do the markings show?
Hi GloveQuote:
Originally Posted by giove
Marking is CM in the 3 sided box. Which I believe is 2014.
Regards Chubbs
Sound advice from buccaneer, definitely worth making sure the bolt has been correctly fitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer
The Italians really did chuck all the bolts into a wire cage, so matching up rifles and bolts would have been a labourous and tedious task... Looking for a needle in a pile of needles!
That aside, this must have been the last time that a significant batch of Enfield's have been surplussed and made available to collectors.
Why don't you contact the Birmingham Proof House and ask.
The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, Banbury Street, Birmingham B5 5RH, England, Tel. 0121 643 3860, Fax 0121 643 7872
I think it's always good to use the gauges go/no-go if you want to shoot the rifle, either the bolt is matched or not matched.
Here in Italy, the PMAL of Terni still has a good number of Lee-Enfield, not the ten thousand sold from the Taranto Navy depot, but a lot, including a number of trainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Headspace has been checked again by gunsmith and ok. Previous to that I had fired over 150 rounds through it. I really didn't have any concerns over the rifle failing just the legality of it especially if I went on to sell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by giove
Regards Lee
---------- Post added at 11:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------
Thanks for the info but they were my first port of call. They state that the bolt should have a mark which is contrary the CIP agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanforth
Regards Chubbs
There is no problem in owning a gun in the UK without recognised proof marks, I have come across lots and I fully expect to see a lot more especially privately owned ex military rifles. You can even shoot it if you wish to do so, the problem arises when you come to sell it.
It is illegal to sell or even advertise for sale a gun that does not have either UK or CIP recognised proof marks something that even some dealers are quite happy to ignore at times.
If there is ever any doubt about the provenance of a gun then it is common sense to have it checked by someone who knows what they are doing, not necessarily your mate down at the shooting club who has got one like yours and then take advice on what if any proof marks there may be on the gun.
Remember military proof marks on British ex military rifles are NOT legal as far as the current proof laws are concerned, guns just showing military proof marks MUST be submitted to either the London or Birmingham proof house for inspection, testing and proofing.
I know that lots of people feel very aggrieved about the proof laws in the UK and the way the proof houses seem to be able to move the goal posts when it suits them but the law is what it is and not necessarily what we would like it to be...…..