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Has anybody checked these guns for sale at Classic Fire Arms in North Carolina?
they have matching numbers, bent bolt, threaded barrels and a scope mount, the wood under the scope looks new and the guns are full of cos. with a date of 1941. I will try ro get some pictures and write a new post.
Thanks for any information.
Tim
:ugh:
They are reproductions sir, some more of Sweaty Bens fantasy rifles.
And the mounts only take the newer type system for the semi-autos and not the originals. The new system seems to stick up in the air a bit more then the originals did. Too high to get a real good hold for shooting and sticks further out to the side and not over the bore of the rifle.
At a big box store i have handled on of these and they are far from the genuine article. As stated earlier this is a newer scope system and truth be told it is a poor copy of the new system at that. The scope mounts are cast and seem chintzy compared to the real deal. plus these are mounted on run of the mill 91/30s, nothing super accurate or special. Matching numbers or not its a sales gimmick.
a legitimate one will have the letters C H stamped on the top of the barrel shank meaning sniper or as they say снайпер.
Only Tulas have the "CH" marking, but there are some legit examples that dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewer
Izhevsks have no special markings to set them apart from standard infantry rifles.
The best way to spot a fake is through education.
Izhevsk do have a special marking to denote them, they have the scope number stamped onto the left side of the barrel shank. The only exception where one might not have this is when they have had a scope swap during refurbishment where they might have ground off the old scope number and never restamped the new one, though this is usually readly discernable.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I suppose you could count that as a special marking if you wish, but it wasn't stamped until sometime after the conversion process. Some say it wasn't added until the rifle went through a refurb as some Tulas have it too.
The Tula "CH", as I understand it, was stamped on the chamber during the accuracy test stage to denote the rifle showed above average accuracy. It amounts to the same thing as the "TR" on the butt socket of Enfield No.4 T's.
Neither is a 100% reliable way to determine a legit MN sniper as they are easily faked by anybody with a stamp set. My '43 Izhevsk PU is a good example. It's a 100% honest refurb mismatch that an overly zealous pervious owner tried to "correct" by stamping the matching scope number on the barrel above the lined out original and they even went so far as to EP the rifle and scope numbers on the mount. I swapped an obvious CIA fake for it even up. Education is still the most reliable method. Originals have certain traits that the fakers cant duplicate.
I believe Factory #74 (Izhevsk) Sniper barrels have a circle-C stamped on them. Like the Tula CH it can be poorly stamped or faint. Also, as with Tula guns, it can be present on non-scoped rifles.
Ridolpho
Ridolpho,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
The circle c mark is actually a concentric 00 and is an accuracy proof mark, it has nothing to do with snipers specifically. It merely signifies the barrel met accuracy standards. Every Izhevsh i own, '43 PU sniper, 1937 infantry rifle and 1948 M44, has it.
Refer to Yuschenko, 2016, pg 101. Two distinct markings. I don't believe there is a more up to date reference than Alex's book.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
Ridolpho
Unfortunately I dont have access to that book. Cant you post a photo of the circle c mark? Perhaps I'm confusing it with something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
Never mind about the photo Ridolpho, I remember the marking you mention now.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I got out of gun collecting in 2016 and back then the subject of the "c" mark being exclusive to Izhevsh snipers was still being debated but there was enough evidence to show it wasn't a definite way to Identify one as the "c" in question could be found on Izzys & Tulas sniper and non sniper alike. However things could've changed since. I dont keep up with it much anymore.
VH: There have been books published recently by Russian and Ukranian authors who have access to original Soviet documents. There appears to be significant clarification of some formerly controversial issues. Unfortunately, Yuschenko's larger book on the 91/30 is in Russian but he has also published a smaller book (M91/30 Rifles and M38/M44 Carbines in 1941-1945....) which will probably start turning up on e-bay, etc. There is also a beautiful book on the development of the Model 1891 and 91/30 by Ruslan Chumak which is only in Russian language. Regards.
Ridolpho
Thanks for the heads up on the new books Ridolpho. Too bad they didnt come out earlier. For me gun collecting( along with hunting,fishing and shooting) lost its allure a good while ago and I've been liquidating my collection over the past couple years with plans to be rid of the bulk of it by next fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho