1905 Ross MkII w/MkIII sight

Hello all,

First time posting on this forum; I'm somewhat of a regular over on the Lee Enfield Forum, but any and all 303's pique my interest, particularly the Ross series of rifles.

I purchased this two weeks ago, and just picked it up today after the 10-day wait (California). It's a commercial 1905 Ross Mk II with Mark III rearsight, no serial number

Rifle is in absolute beautiful condition. Very few small scratches in the wood with majority of finish remaining. The only wear appears to be on the floorplate and top of the butt-plate. I tried taking pics of the color-case hardening on the bolt. Photography is not my strong point.

Anyways, here are a few pics. The most interesting is the inscription etched on the butt-plate. I'll do a some research on this later.

The rifle came into a gun-shop in Culver City California, seven years ago. The owner recognized the rifle in scarce condition and had intentions of keeping it. He had it stored at his shop until the store manager mentioned the growing collection in the stock room. He decided it was time to winnow out his collection, and put it up for sale. He told me he remembered an older woman walking into his shop. All she could elaborate on was that it was in the family for many years. They were cleaning out the estate of a relative and the rifle surfaced. No one in the family showed any interest in the Ross, so she took it into the shop to liquidate.

Then I wandered in and spent the better part of a paycheck on it. It wasn't cheap, but I'm very pleased with it.

Hope you all enjoy the pics.

A nice rifle, and a piece of Canadian history. Congratulations. I'm envious.

That is one absolute nice rifle ,the condition is outstanding.

Was it purchased from Martin B. Retting by chance? Thanks.
Very nice rifle.

Thanks all, for the nice comments.

AGB-1; yes, this was purchased at Martin Retting. I only make it into this shop once or twice a year. They have a nasty habit of taking my paychecks! Two years ago, I was sick of being in traffic on the nearby freeway, so I stopped in to kill time. I wound up purchasing a Charger Loading Lee Metford and Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I!!!! Both were beautiful, and put me on the path to many overtime days to cover the costs.

I took the Ross apart last night to do some light cleaning, and I do emphasize LIGHT. The original grease had long since dried out, and was as hard as plastic. The magazine cut-off and transverse safety were frozen solid. Some penetrating oil and several cotton swabs restored their function. Re-assembled with a light coat of grease, and plenty of BLO for the stock. Oddly enough, I found paraffin wax packed under the barrel and around the action.

I did manage to find five serial numbers!

More pics...

I used to get Rettings Catalog(flyers) in the early 60's. they always had neat items and they still have ads on Gun Broker.

Very nice rifle. You may want to use raw linseed oil instead of blo due to the other chemical additives that speed up the drying process.
Cheers, Steve

I took my new Ross out this morning for a quick range session. It did not disappoint! It is an accurate rifle with mild recoil. Target pic was best five-shot group at 100 yards.

I fired several handloads through it, and found it liked 150 grain sierras over IMR 4064. While accurate, it did odd things to the brass. Last pic are two cases, both HXP. Tarnished case was a factory military load fired through an Enfield No 4 I also brought along. The shinier case is a full-length sized HXP is use for my reloads. Check out that odd looking neck!

The chamber appears longer and wider at the shoulder in the Ross fired case than that of the case fired in the No. 4 Enfield. Is there any indication (i.e. stamp) indicating that the chamber has been re-cut? Ross marked the knox form his .303 cal. sporter rifles as .303 Ross.

Nothing marked on the barrel or chamber area, other than an "I-Q". Until recently, I used to have a cut down Mk IIIB Ross that did this same thing to brass. No pressure signs or other indicators on the brass, other than the blown out neck.

I think I might have narrowed the problem down.

NORTHOF60: Your comments of the 303 Ross scared me, so I spent the rest of the day digging through my reference and reloading literature in regards the 303 Ross. I wanted to make sure I wasn't shooting the wrong ammunition in my rifle. I was able to find the 303 ross and 303 British are one in the same. "303 Ross" was Sir Charles method of self promotion (or at least that is what the general consensus seems to say). As I said, I had an old Mk IIIB that did the same thing to brass, but that chamber was clearly marked with a large L-C (large cone). I thought it odd that a 1908 MkII that was an apparent commercial purchase would have an LC chamber.

I also stumbled on several threads that brought up this same phenomena of odd-looking brass. A common idea amongst these threads is that it aided in extraction.

This was the most clearly written with pictures.

.303 Ross Question - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum

Interesting aspect of the Ross Rifles, and I learned a few more things that aren't printed in the Ross Rifle Story.

Thanks for posting the link to the IAA Web Forum, smle addict. I am aware that the .303 Ross and .303 British are identical cartridges (I have an 1905 R Sporter marked .303 Ross) - I was just trying to establish a starting point for the chamber. There is a great deal of information and misinformation available on the Ross, much of it shaded by personal opinion. I am by no means an expert, but I have read that pre-WWI Ross .303 chambers were almost to target specifications. Your rifle is a Mk II, and the butt plate inscription places it no later than 1909, so I wouldn't expect any modification to the chamber to assist extraction, common to many of the Mk III's in service overseas - stamped "E". You have a conundrum - hopefully, some of the wiser heads will be able to assist you. I really have to get a copy of "The Ross Rifle Story"!

Thanks for that, NORTHOF60. This is truly a slippery slope: I am pretty heavy into lee-enfields and lee-metfords. With this Ross purchase, I can feel the slow infection of Ross' starting to take hold!

I've already seen other Mk II's for sale, and I'm fighting the temptation to buy more. They are truly a mechanical marvel, and a dream to shoot.

I was thinking that very thing (LOL), while I was taking my dog for a walk this morning: "This way leads to madness ....".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle addict

I did manage to find five serial numbers!

More pics...

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I'm not sure those are serial numbers despite appearing to be. Those numbers when seen, never seem to correspond to the rifle serial number, and Ross did not serial number bolts for some unknown reason.

I did hear back from the IODE/Ontario. They have an excellent records-keeping department, and filled in the back story of Mr. Palmer and this Ross rifle. Very interesting reading:

"I understand that IODE Canada has been contacted by a gentleman asking for information about a Canadian manufactured rifle that he purchased at an estate sale in California.
An inscription on the butt-plate reads, “Presented by the Alexandra Chapter, Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire, To Upper Canada College, Won by CDP Palmer, 1908”.

Our student publication, College Times, includes the following reference in its Christmas 1908 issue page 6: Ross Rifle—Presented by the Alexandra Chapter of the Daughters of the Empire—C. D. B. Palmer.
I can see in The Roll of Pupils of Upper Canada College, Toronto: January 1830 to June 1916 that Charles Douglas Brydon Palmer attended the College as a boarder from 1907 to 1911. More details can be seen here: The roll of pupils of Upper Canada College, Toronto : January 1830 to June 1916 : Young, A. H. (Archibald Hope), 1863-1936 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I can see from the Tenth Annual Report of the national chapter of Canada and its allied Associations that the Alexandra Chapter decided to present a rifle to Upper Canada College to encourage rifle shooting among the boys. More information can be seen here: Tenth Annual Report of the national chapter of Canada and its allied Associations : Imperial order of the daughters of the empire and the children of the empire : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. H. W. Auden, Principal of Upper Canada College at this time is also listed as a member of the Advisory Board here: Tenth Annual Report of the national chapter of Canada and its allied Associations : Imperial order of the daughters of the empire and the children of the empire : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

(As a general FYI, further IODE publications can be seen here: Internet Archive Search: )

Other references to the Alexandra Chapter in College Times may provide more information in relation to the award of the rifles.

Easter issue 1908 page 7
The Rifle Company is more than keeping up the standard which was set last year. This term, as last, the right half company drilled on Tuesday and the left half on Thursday, and a good deal of hard work was done. The new equipment which was expected at the beginning of the term did not arrive until some weeks later, and some of the time while waiting was utilized by Sergeant Major Utton, for lectures on the different formations. These lectures were very interesting, illustrated as they were by scenes from the experiences of Sergeant Major Utton in the South African War. On the arrival of the new rifles the Company commenced hard drill in the gymnasium but for the last week or two, the corps has been drilling outside and put in some splendid work, showing well the results of their hard work during the winter.

The Company has entered a Physical Drill Squad in the coming Military Tournament. The squad will do the bayonet exercises, and although as yet there has not been much practice in this department they will no doubt be in very good shape. A range has been fitted up in the western basement, and we now have shooting with reduced ammunition without going down to the Armouries.
During the coming session, the Ross Rifle presented by the Alexandra Chapter will be contested for. The competition will take place as soon after the inspection as possible."

I did a simple genealogy check and found the family tree of Mr. Palmer. Interesting, in that family surname "Brydon" became "Bryson." Probably a spelling error...

Sometime after his school attendance, he emigrated to Culver City (Los Angeles County) California.

It seems Mr Palmer went by Douglas (with Bryson listed as a middle name), and I was able to find two Los Angeles, CA census records, listing "Douglas B. Palmer" as a Los Angeles resident. Both census' (1930 and 1940) list his place of birth as Ontario, Canada.

I also found the death certificate of Mr Palmer, b. 1890 Ont. CA, d.1968 Los Angeles County. He lived to 77 years of age. His descendants still reside in Culver City today.

A very gratifying investigation!

Mk II (Mk II** excepted) and commercial 1905 rifles left the factory with chambers that were enlarged to aid extraction. I have a number of Mk IIs and commercial 1905s - all of which (other than the Mk II**) do the same thing to the brass. The neck appears to be the primary area where the chamber was enlarged. It is interesting that the very tip of the neck tends to step down slightly from the diameter of the rest of the neck. The over sized neck can make resizing a bit of a challenge.

Strange that a prize rifle from 1908 would be reamed out like that, unless an owner had it done, perhaps on hearing all the jazz about jams etc.

I think this is your man: Charles Douglas Bryden Palmer, born Galt, Ontario, Dec. 1, 1890. Father was born in USA and managed a saw making factory in Galt. Attended Upper Canada College 1907-1911, (Canada's Eton so to speak), lost a limb at some point, but no WWI Canadian records found, working for Canada Porcelain Co, Hamilton, Ont. in 1917. Emigrated to CA in 1923, perhaps to be near his sister who lived in LA. Had a niece who died about 1989.

smle_addict, I see on reading more that you've already covered it well!

Surpmil: thank you for the additional info on Mr. Palmer. It really is a thrill to attach an owner to a firearm. I imagine Mr. Palmer would have had a hard time locating 303 British in 1920's-1940's Los Angeles, which could explain it's immaculate bore and condition. Whatever the reason, he stored this rifle very well, and it's a beauty.

Thanks to all for the additional info, interest, and comments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Strange that a prize rifle from 1908 would be reamed out like that, unless an owner had it done, perhaps on hearing all the jazz about jams etc.

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Ross rifles do not have good primary extraction. As I understand it, the Mk II/1905 chambers were not reamed out. They were chambered with loose tolerances when built in order to aid primary extraction. The Mk II** are a different story. They are chambered to a tight tolerance. The Mk IIIs are the rifles that had their chambers enlarged as an after-thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Ross rifles do not have good primary extraction. As I understand it, the Mk II/1905 chambers were not reamed out. They were chambered with loose tolerances when built in order to aid primary extraction. The Mk II** are a different story. They are chambered to a tight tolerance. The Mk IIIs are the rifles that had their chambers enlarged as an after-thought.

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I'll let those with larger Ross collections speak to that, but myself I don't remember seeing cases like that out of a commercial Ross before.

The info from the IODE is not clear on whether this was a one time prize rifle or not, but unless they gave more than one, it would seem more likely to have been a rifle awarded annually. When I was in school there were two Ross rifles with little silver shields all down their stocks commemorating those who had won them. (Not at UCC I hasten to add!) Perhaps Palmer won the prize several times and so was given the rifle to keep?

Surpmil, you are correct regarding rifles being awarded annually. Here are a few excerpts from the voluminous archived notes:

"Indian Summer issue 1906 page 5
In view of the action of the Alexandra chapter of the Daughters of the Empire in presenting us annually with a Ross rifle for open competition, the appended account of proceedings at the D. R.A. annual meeting is interesting."

"Summer 1911 page 3
A most successful shooting competition for the Ross Rifle, donated by the Alexandra Chapter of the D.O.E., has just been completed. A much greater interest has been aroused this year than last, partly on account of the added second prize and partly on account of the change of the first prize. Formerly the rifle given was the regulation military-style; but owing to Mr. Auden's suggestion, it has been changed to a Ross Sporting Rifle. This change, as can be seen, has been greatly appreciated. The successful winner of the rifle this year is Private F. M. Jones, and of the second prize is Private J. R. Jones Both winners led throughout the competition and fully deserved the reward for their good marksmanship."

"A Ross rifle was presented yearly by the Alexandra Chapter of the Daughters of the Empire to the best shot in the Company. Targets were put up in the field behind the hospital and much more interest was taken in rifle-shooting. In 1910 the Lieutenant-Governor presented a prize of books for annual competition in rifle shooting."

There were many more references in regards of an annual rifle-prize, but these three were the most detailed in regards annual awards.