Hey might of found one. Is this an 870 or Winchester 1200? I can never tell.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t.../870trench.jpg
Hey might of found one. Is this an 870 or Winchester 1200? I can never tell.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t.../870trench.jpg
That's the 1200.
Steve? the 870 your looking at is not a US made gun, the heat shield is a reproduction,
even the early Mark1,s were roll stamped U.S. PROPERTY on the left side, under the the words Wingmaster. no heat shield, only a bayonet mount that the extended mag tube help hold in place.
even the Navy issue riot had the same type of bayonet lug, to accept the M16 bayonet.
though not the best pics, it what i could find on the fly,
notice,., NO HEAT SHEILDS>> just bayonet lugs
Chuck why do you think the heatshield is repo? On every other site I posted including the jouster site, they all say the heat shield is a legit 60's era Ithaca heatshield, they just question the US stamp. Which I would too.
The pics you are showing of the Marines is at least from the early 90's at the earliest. They have M9's with the new style bianchi holsters. And the instructor is wearing gortex boots. I went in the 90's and never saw gortex books until about 95 or 96 or so. This picture I would guess if from the late 90's. And I remember wearing a headset just like that one about 1997 at camp pendleton training in mount town. It was all high tech back then. It was different time than when my 870 would have been issued. They have Mark 1's that Remington produced for the Marine Corps under a govt contract. I remember seeing those in the armory and even carried a few on guard duty around the armory. Just never knew they were Mark 1's until I started researching 870's a couple days ago. We just called them shotguns. In Vietnam, many vets claim to have seen 870's all over the place, but from my reserach and calling Remington directly. They have no records of the military purchasing 870's at all until the Marines with the Mark 1's in about 1974 or so. All vietnam 870's must have been commercial from Remington is telling me. They wouldn't have been property marked unless an Armory did it. It's comparing apples to oranges with those pictures.
A more accurate comparisson I would think would be the Marine above with the 1200. That is probably early 70's to mid 70's. Note the trench gun heatshield. If that Marine has a heat shield even though it was a winchester, there woud have been others as well I would think including Ithacas and maybe even 870's. Hell we had some trench guns in the armory when I was in the 90's with the heat shield. I just didn't know anything about them, and never cared. Heck they might have been 870's. Hard telling. They were old and we didn't touch them. I was too much into black rifles at the time.
Steve - You posted the same questions, about the same shotgun, with the same pictures and the same arguement. Same answers. In that thread you commented about MILSRP's in your CSP/Jousters entry..Quote:
Originally Posted by cplstevennorton
"A lot of that group over there are jerks".
How about a explaination for your comment? :confused: :confused:
You know Mike I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you. It ain't worth it. But there are a few "guys" over on this site that I cannot stand who think they know everything. They feel they have to respond to every posting on this site, whether they are an expert on the subject or not, and most of the time they talk out of their butt. I can't stand it. I would put my knowledge of most categories of milsurps up against anyone. But I'm still learning on combat shotguns, that is why I asked about this one. But no one can say they know it all. There was too much out for any one person to know it all. And a few guys on this site think they know it all, and have to tell you about it. It drives me nuts.
I had no problem with Browningautorifle. He said what he believed. I disagreed, but I still respect his opinion. And he seems like a nice guy. I have no problems with him. But I'm not going to lie. I don't like Chuck. I don't know if he remembers me, but I had a bad business transaction with him about three years ago where he got me pretty good on a repark on a 1911. I won't go into all the details as it isn't worth it anymore as it just gets me mad everytime I think of it. But I sent him a Colt M1911 pistol. Was suppose to take a month. I ended getting it back after a year but it was all hacked up. I had to sell it as parts as it was so bad. And I lost a lot of money on it. First and last time I have dealt with the guy. And last time I ever talked to him personally. Other's have had good luck with him. Some have not. I am one of the one's who have not.
I only posted on this site as there are a few stragglers from the old Jouster forum still hanging over there that are very knowlegeable. And I thought maybe a few of them might be able to answer the quesiton on this shotgun. None of them did answer, which is a shame as they don't know, or maybe they don't hang around this forum anymore, or maybe this shotgun is so fake to them it isn't worth their answer. Don't know. 99% of the people on this site are fine. But the 1% makes me wish for the good ole days of the original jouster site. Ever since the old jouster forum closed we lost a lot of knowlegeable people to other websites and kept a few I would have like to seen gone.
I don't think anyone can say outright for sure this shotgun is fake. Just like I can't ever say it's real. I was just hoping maybe a vet might look at it and say, yeah I saw those in the armory. I think my arguments have been just and justified. And I'm still looking for any information that proves this shotgun is fake or real. But the heatshield I don't believe is a repo. And no one other than chuck has said that the shield is fake, which I don't believe he is correct.
The shotgun is a shotgun, nothing else. It is NOT military. It is not an Mk1. If the definition of a trenchgun is having a heatshield and a bayonet lug then it is indeed a trenchgun. If the US stamped on the receiver is an attempt to represent it as a US Military trench shotgun then yes, it is fake. End of conversation.
Where is Big Larry? No wonder he bailed.
ok,,,well, lets clear the air here a bit...
first..your right the heatshield could be a Genuine deal, hard to really say without holding it in my hands. the reason i thinks its a repro, is do to the purple finish, common with cast iron thats been blued.. second..i was just trying to help you save the 400.00 and not buy it as a Military shotgun, as its not...the Military issue 870,s fall into a set of serials as well,
i have looked at the prototype 870 fighting shotguns on display at Cody,,,they do not have a heatshield type bayonet addapter..
and yes,,, i remember the 1911 that i worked on...if memory and the pictures i have on file serve me right,, someone had blued it, and installed target sights on the slide at sometime.
and when the front sight was removed, a large square hole was found, along with the nose of the pistol had been sanded or ground off, giving it a droopy nose.
admited at the time i didnt own the welder i have now, but did the best i could , welding the hole, and building back up the end of the slide, then installing a front sight, and recutting the bushing lock with the welder i had at the time and the use a friends mill .
and likey was a {parts} gun at best before i tackled it..had you just called me and said something, i would have done my best to make it right.. sent another slide refund ect..
on the plus side, i learned, when to say no..on projects too far gone, from the amount of time and effort spent trying to make it look right..and im sorry if you wernt happy with the end results.
as for you not liking me???didnt have a clue till now...and will address it different in the future, i guess you cant make em all happy no matter how hard you try...such is life...
i went and read the comments on Jouster, and i must say...WOW... really?? are we 15 and 16?? or adults...
though i have a bus dealing with restorations of vintage weapons, i never really thought myself as a {humper} and cant think of anything iv sold to anyone that wasnt exaclty what i said it was.. if its a turd...ill gift wrap it with a bow,. but it will still be a turd, and ill tell you so, i do have a couple {faked} weapons in my safe that are mine, and i shoot them, and they likely will never be for sale on the market till long after im dead...and then it wont matter anyway.
call me whatever you like, everybodys welcome to some sort of opinion...
as far as the threats and comments??? please.... a guys gotta grow up someday.. just remember,, opinions are like &^%holes, everyones got one, and they all stink.