I recently got some Greek 303 ammo in trade. The 48rd boxes are marked (besides all the greek stuff) as MK 7 Z and HXP-69. I assume it's as good as the 30-06 ammo they made as well?
Nobody had issues with it?
Thanks!
Printable View
I recently got some Greek 303 ammo in trade. The 48rd boxes are marked (besides all the greek stuff) as MK 7 Z and HXP-69. I assume it's as good as the 30-06 ammo they made as well?
Nobody had issues with it?
Thanks!
Yes, it's good. Shoot it up and send me the brass! HXP brass is excellent for reloading.
I had some Greek .303.
Out of all the rounds I fired, one would not chamber.
It has a poorly formed case head.
Right above the rim is a rough band of brass.
It looks a little like the belt you see on belted magnums, but it's right above the rim, there's no extra space for the extractor hook.
It would never chamber, and I still have it.
Even so, if I could find any more Greek .303 I would snatch it up quick.
It never had a dead primer and the accuracy was was probably better than my eyesight.:thup:
Excellent reloadable ammo.
OK, so where can I score a crate like that? Full, of course.
I forget which site it was, but there was a fella who took apart a bunch of HXP73.
I seem to recall:
Bullets tended to be 173 grains
Powder charge had about a 1 grain variation
The neck wall thickness sometimes was different on a given case, again, this is from memory, about .003".
So now you know what to do to make super reloads after you have the fun of shooting it the first time!
Yep, HXP is great stuff.
Skip, check out the chargers used in your cans. Often they had recycled early model chargers- the type with the four long slots in the bottom.
Where??? Where where where where where??????Quote:
Originally Posted by Son
That case was purchased around the mid 1980s. When I saw it in Shotgun News I ordered a case cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
in fact, unless you find someone who is selling their own "hoarded" stuff at a gunshow, it has been MANY years since any was imported.Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
right up there is the non-corrosive South African stuff (berdan) you occasinally find.
otherwise, there was POF (pakistani) stuff (corrosive) and mixed headstamp stuff Sportsmans Guide had for a while.
Bottom Line, there AINT any "decent" surplus .303 around. The Wolf Gold and Prvi (all yugo) is exceptionally good stuff, but it's 75 cents a round or more.
and PS, the brass is "OK" certainly better than Sellier and Bellot (which was horrible stuff for reloading), but the Prvi/Wolf is easily as good as Winchester/Remington US brass (maybe a bit better).
Well, I've got some Rem and PRVI brass, the dies, some 7.62x54R bullets, primers and powder, guess I've gotta roll me own.
try IMR 4895 to start, TENDS to be the most accurate powder esp. with the lighter 54R bullets, but if I had only one powder for .303, it would be 4895.Quote:
Originally Posted by rondog
Excuse my ignorance here, but I was under the impression that "Z" suffix ammunition was specifically earmarked NOT to be used in rifles, only in machine guns. Something to do with the powder load IIRC.
I recall this was Defense Industry Canada, Z = Nitro Powder (i.e. NOT cordite). Loaded to (essentially) the same pressure/velocity as any other surplus. I suspect the only made for "machine gun" use ammo is linked with tracers or incendiary (which would still be safe in the bolt rifle).Quote:
Originally Posted by FugWit2
bottom line, unless it is a PROOF round, if it is .303 and your rifle is in good condition, you CAN SHOOT IT (albeit. much is BOTH corrosive and cordite)
As stated earlier looking for Greek HXP ammunition is like looking for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Save your energy and buy Prvi Partizan cases they are larger in diameter in the base web area than ANY other brand of .303 British case made. They are also .010 thicker in the base web area and are made to military standards or some of you might remember made like Lake City Match grade cases.
Fire form your cases using the rubber o-ring method around the base of the case as this eliminates any and all excess headspace or head gap clearance. The o-ring also centers the case in the chamber when compressed and promotes equal case expansion and prevents the case from stretching in the web area on the first firing.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6206-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6241-1.jpg
Guess which case is larger and thicker in the base web area?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...privihxp-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5098-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP5096-1.jpg
Not so much with the powder, but the bullet. The Z load used a boat tailed bullet, which gave longer range for long range area firing by MG's. The boat tail in a rifle allowed excessive erosion in the bore/chamber throat area. I'm sure someone will correct, but that was my understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FugWit2
That would be MkVIII w/ the boat tail bullet. "Z" refers to the type of powder.
ETA Don't immediately find a Milsurps article on 303 ammo types. Am I missing something AGAIN?
From Army Ordnance Service book :
"Small Arms Ammunition" 24th February 1945
Ball Mk7 36.5 gr Cordite
Ball Mk7Z 37 gr N.C
Weight 174gr. Envelope of cupro-nickel gilding metal, or, gilding metal coated steel. lead/Antimony core. Aluminium or paper tipped, flat based, seured by coning and indenting. Strawboard wad in Mk7
Ball Mk8Z
Weight 174gr. Envelope of cupro-nickel gilding metal, or, gilding metal coated steel. lead/Antimony core. No tip, streamlined, flat fronted cannelure secured by coning
'Streamlined' refered to in the Mk8Z is what we now call 'boat-tail'
The book goes into great detail about what ammunition can be used in what firearm but basically Mk7, Mk7Z or Mk8Z can be used in Rifles but Mk7 or Mk7Z MUST NOT be used in machine guns, if a machine gun has been used with any Mk7 the barrel must be stamped with a number 7 and immediately returned to the armourer for replacement.
A few rounds of Mk7 destroys the accuracy of machine gun barrels.
Not stated in the 'book' but from various quotes - the Mk8Z does allow gasses to increase erosion by allowing them to escape around the bullet in worn barrels.
I have found that smaller bullets (ie 150gr) do not perform as well as 174 gr as there appears to be less bullet for the rifling to 'grip'. I'm making an assumption here but with a boat tail it would be similar to a smaller bullet and accuracy may be affected. - Just my thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
I'd like to see someone demonstrate how that theory was observed and measured: even the British arsenals - after tens of millions of rounds expended in testing & development - never listed any such evidence or supposition.
Exactly my point - heresay easily becomes fact when the internet allows global interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
I can understand the theory that shorter (lighter) bullets will have less 'grip' or contact in the barrel and may have less accuracy but the 'escaping gas' and erosion theory eludes me - certainly when we look at the number of rounds we'll fire
Sure; one of the other throwaway line that supports a myth industry is "A few rounds of Mk7 destroys the accuracy of machine gun barrels." Without all of the supporting data, this is fairly meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield
What did they mean by "few": 3 or 4 rounds? 300 or 400, or 3,000 or 4,000? Viz, if a barrel has a normal service life of 10-15,000 rounds, then the proportional wear caused by a few tens of rounds is going to be of an order of magnitude so small that it'd be subsumed by other factors such as manufacturing tolerances and surface finishes in the new barrel, etc.
Without getting into the "accuracy" part - machine guns barrels aren't intended to be match barrels anyway, because they have to produce a "beaten zone" - there must be more to the MkVII/VIIz/VIIIz story than just the difference between cordite and nitro. E.g. I have a large quantity of MkVIIIz, and find that for some reason it shoots very well in P14s - whether they are very worn (presumably from a service life with cordite MkVII) or brand new bore condition. The performance in No4s varies from poor to exceptional with no obvious correlation to bore condition (again assuming that most bore wear in a well-used No4 has occurred with cordite ammo). Perhaps there are subtle variations in the form factor of the rifling itself that have an effect?
What would be acceptable as supporting data ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbox
The following is word for word (I cannot cut and paste from a Pdf) extract from from "Regulations For Army Ordnance Services - Part 7 Small Arms Ammunition"
No 'spin', no hype, no rumours just the facts as they were seen in 1945.
Words in brackets are mine as way of an explanation, words in capitals / bold are as they appear in the in the regulations.
Mark 8Z 303-in SAA (Small Arms Ammunition) has a neonite load and a streamlined based bullet. Trial firings have proved that these (Mk7 and Mk8z) two types of ammunition do not wear the barrels in the same manner. Barrels which have been used for Mk7 or 303-in Tracer become inaccurate much sooner when Mk8Z is used in them, than barrels in which Mk8z only has been employed.
One advantage of Mk8z ammunition is that the barrel maintains accuracy and elevation until the actual moment of collapse. No indication of approaching barrel failure is given when Mk8z ammunition is used. Accuracy is liable to break down very suddenly and the barrel becomes dangerous for use for overhead fire in the latter stages of its life. To ensure the safety of our own troops during overhead fire by medium machine guns, the life of a Vickers gun barrel using Mk8z SAA ONLY has, therefore been fixed at 10,000 rounds (or 40 belts). This figure is well within the number of rounds successfully completed by the earliest failure of barrels firing and endurance accuracy test under conditions of excessively rapid rates of fire. If, however even a few rounds of cordite loaded SAA are fired, the Mk8z accuracy life drops considerable.
The following instructions regarding the use of these various types of 303-in SAA will be strictly enforced :-
a).303-in. Vickers machine gun battalions.
1) Mk8z ONLY to be used.
2) Mixed belts of Mk8z and tracer must NOT be used.
3) Any barrel that has fired Mk7 or .303-in tracer must NOT be used for firing Mk8Z
4) Barrel life for Mk8Z is 10,000 rounds.
Barrels of Vickers machine guns in machine gun battalions which have fired Mk7, .303-in tracer. Or .303-in AP SAA will be stamped with the figure 7 on the trunnion block and returned to ordnance through normal channels. New barrels for use with Mk8z will be demanded in exchange.
Light Machine Guns*
Mk8z being neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk8z in order to lessen the flash.
Rifles*
Mk8z SAA will not be used in rifles except as in the case of the Bren gun (see above), if necessity should arise.
*Although the use of Mk7 and kindred types of cordite loaded flat base, bulleted, ammunition reduces Mk8z barrel life, the reverse is not the case. No deleterious effects will therefore be produced by the occasional and restricted use of Mk8z ammunition in these weapons (Rifles) for the purposes indicated above.
it just didn't happen when Sierra did testing (direct comparison in new barre;s BT vs. FB) a bout 15+ years ago (written up in Prec. Shooting at the time).
my only problem with 174 BTs in SMLEs is that they have never been any more accurate than a lot of FB bullets.
Ah, music to my ears, since I just happen to have an 8# jug of IMR4895! Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA Hugh Uno
no less a personage than DICK CULVER...
***********
The short answer (as you have apparently just found out from personal experience) is that your barrel should be good for another 5000 rds (at least according to a Frankfort Arsenal Report conducted in the 1945/1946 timeframe.
Old wives tails had long held that a maximum barrel life with service ammunition was approximately 5000 rds or less. Some said as few as 3500. And just EVERYONE knew that using AP would trash your barrel in a heartbeat. On the flip side of the coin, most experts considered that M1 (172-gr) Ball, (essentially a precursor of the 172-grain FA Match 30-'06) to be extremely accurate, however according to urban legend, it was BOUND to "eat" barrels at an accelerated rate due to the 9 degree boat-tail that would allow hot gasses forward of the bullet base while the projectile was still in the bore!
As it turns out, virtually every old wives tale was pure unadulterated "Moose Manure", however some very high priced help published them as gospel. Clark Campbell in his excellent book "The '03 Springfield" parroted the widely held belief concerning the 172-grain match ammo being hard on the bore, and Phil Sharpe, one of the developers of the .357 Magnum Cartridge an a WWII Army Ordnance Officer and regular contributor to the "Dope Bag" in the American Rifleman) put out the information in his "Complete Guide to Handloading" that while the mild steel jackets of the WWII .30-'06 Ball wouldn't harm the bore of your favorite target rifle, he would not shoot .30 caliber M2 AP in his rifle under ANY circumstances... Just goes to show you how wrong you can be.
Frankford Arsenal grew weary of the stories and decided to conduct a test to determine if they were correct. Without going into great detail, they found that when using either M1 Ball (almost identical to the later M72 Match Ball) or M2 Armor Piercing, the accuracy actually improved up through the first 1000 rounds or so (don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact numbers as I don't have my references in front of me and am too lazy to dig 'em out right this second). They continued to fire the test (using a test rack) and it seemed that the accuracy "improvement" seemed to taper off after 1000 rounds, but the accuracy itself did NOT decrease. The accuracy continued to be excellent to outstanding through at least 8000 rounds. They finally ceased the test, not because the accuracy was declining, but because they simply got tired of firing, since the accuracy showed no sign of decreasing. FA estimated that the excellent accuracy should continue through at least 10,000 rounds and probably beyond.
This was NOT the case with the 150 grain M2 Ball however, it seems that the accuracy began to drop off after about 3500 - 4000 rounds (again don't hold my feet to the fire, I plan to write an article on this and will include the actual figures when I do). The only common thread to the barrel longevity I can personally see, is that both the M1 Ball (172 gr. Match) and the 165-168 gr. AP have a boat-tailed configuration (9 degree for the 172 and a much less obvious 6 degree for the AP).
Throat erosion is another bugaboo that is usually blown out of proportion. We had a gent by the name of Eric England shooting for the Marine Corps for years. He had a favorite M70 that the Ordnance folks kept trying to get him to turn in since the throat was essentially non-existent... Eric steadfastly refused because he kept setting National Records with a shot-out throat... An old rule of thumb used to be that two things happened if your bore was shaped like a pyramid (i.e., bigger at one end than the other). If it was big at the muzzle and small in the throat, you had a boat anchor. If it was big at the throat and small at the muzzle, you had a (potential) shooter - please understand that I'm talking "relative measurements" here... In other words, if your muzzle was tight you were usually OK, but not the other way around.
At any rate, I've raved on much further than I had planned, but I think you can plan on an extremely long accuracy life out of your M1 or M1A barrel if you continue to use 168 -175 gr. boat-tailed bullets at normal velocities…
Best regards,
Dick
Except that has nadda to do w/ Greek 303 which last I recall has a 174gr aluminum core tip w/ flat base using an IMR type powder. Are we done yet?
Sorry, its just that we've done all this before.
Interesting hash out of the information. Thanks.
It seems that, from the information posted here, I'm actually inadvertantly creating Mk VIIZ ronds when I reload, as I'm using 174Gr BT bullets, propelled by single base stick powder (3031) & have been doing so for years with no bad side effects.
One reason I was so interested in this thread was the fact that I may have access to a reasonable quantity of the Greek .303 ammo, & was unsure of the differences (if any) between the "Z" suffix ammo & "regular" Greek HXP headstamped .303.
:thup: .... :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Can you imagine if we merged all the threads on this same subject into a single entity ... ;)
Any volunteers out there who want to write up a single Knowledge Library article on this subject, so we can cut-n-paste the link instead of all the posts?
Regards,
Badger
To: Jmoore, Thunderbox, et al.
From: Ed Horton
Subject: “Are we done yet?”
Answer: No friggin way (You expletive deleted commie pinko perverts and non-believers) :yikes:
1. Sierra did a study and said boat tail bullets do not cause more barrel wear. Sierra sells boat tail bullets, WHAT the heck did you think Sierra was going to say.
2. Revolvers have top strap cutting from high temperature gas erosion and rifles can suffer from the same effects.
3. Worn automobile engines suffer from blow by from worn rings that no longer seal the bore of the cylinder.
4. Flat base bullets when fired or kicked in the a$$ will expand and fill the bore diameter and thus seal the bore. Boat tail bullets when fired do not expand and seal the bore.
5. In a perfect world where the bullet diameter matches the bore diameter boat tail bullets “may” not cause more barrel erosion vs. flat base bullets
6. Problem, we do not live in a perfect world and if the boat tail bullet is not the exact same size as the bore diameter you can get “blow by” and high temperature gas erosion.
The bullets below are a perfect example, steel core Russian pulls, .310 diameter boat tails, in a worn barrel they have “blow by” and want to go any direction but straight.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMGP6244-1.jpg
These same bullets shoot fine in a like new Enfield barrel but put them in a worn two groove barrel and they start shooting sideways.
Now read below and let this sink into your synaptic network.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boattail-1.jpg
Corbin Rebated Boattail Dies
In closing I want you people to think about the gun camera film you have seen from WWII fighters and the “odd” trajectories these boat tail bullets take when fired from a worn over heated barrel.
Yes I shoot boat tail bullets in my Enfield’s because I load them below 43,000 CUP which is the starting point where the peak flame temperature starts to melt barrel steel. I do this by using the slower burning powders that can take advantage of the Enfield’s longer 25 inch barrel.
To: Jmoore, Thunderbox, et al. “Bah Humbug” :D
OK, then. When y'all figger it all out, let me know. Oh, whilst you're cipherin' see if rifling types and degrees of polish and cold worked versus cut rifling make any difference. First one to fire 10,000 rounds per variable wins!
:rolleyes:It looks like the British had spies at the Finnish Lapua ammunition plant before they finalized the design of the Ball Mk.8Z. round. (Rebated boat tail design)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/Img023-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Img023a-1.jpg
Below the famous Lapua RBT preferred by shooting experts for accuracy and loooong barrel life……………… ;)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...46_lapua-1.jpg
To: Jmoore, “Bah Humbug” twice :D :D
(Jmoore, kiss me and turn me into a toad) :rofl:
Sorry I almost forgot………………never say never :rolleyes:
Whichever way this works out I'm committed now.
I just bought every last round of the HXP70 & MkVII z they had in stock & I bought it to shoot with, not debate on the internet.
FugWit2 - I think you made the right decision :D
I buy any HXP 303 ammo I can find and add it to my supply. Once the HXP price reaches that of loaded Privi, I'll start buying that based on Ed's comments (unless I personally find otherwise).
Just a point to clarify.............the "z" mark on the headstamp of a British or Commonwealth .303 cartridge denotes the use of "Nitrocellulose Powder." This differentiates it from cartridges loaded with cordite that have no "z" in the headstamp.
The Prvi Partizan IS nice ammo, & at today's prices, very reasonably priced.
I grabbed all I could find a while back when I found a source selling it for U.S. $9.95 per 20 ;)
The HXP was a lucky find, I'm discovering there are little pockets of good ammo out there, but it is no longer the internet mass marketers. This particular supply comes from a mom & pop gunstore located in the basement of a small town general store.
As for the "Z" suffixed ammo I'm utterly confused now as to wether it's a powder change, a bullet change , or both. Luckily I have a couple of crates to open up & I'll pull down a round & see what the heck I just bought.
Personally I load BT bullets as the rifle likes them, & 3031 powder as I like it, so I'm assuming all the rest is foam on the brain internet syndrome, particularly as the illustrations posted contradict themselves, the case headstamp being VII which when I went to school was Roman numerals for "7" but the text referes to "8" which would be VIII??????
“As for the "Z" suffixed ammo I'm utterly confused now as to wether it's a powder change, a bullet change , or both. Luckily I have a couple of crates to open up & I'll pull down a round & see what the heck I just bought.”
”Personally I load BT bullets as the rifle likes them, & 3031 powder as I like it, so I'm assuming all the rest is foam on the brain internet syndrome, particularly as the illustrations posted contradict themselves, the case headstamp being VII which when I went to school was Roman numerals for "7" but the text referes to "8" which would be VIII??????”
Fugwit2
I sorry if I caused any confusion and I wasn’t “fugingwithU”, but please do me a favor. When someone takes the time and copies, scans and converts these images from a 1945 British manual into Adobe Acrobat .pdf format, PLEASE DO NOT speed read or skim over what is posted. :bitch:
They say a picture is worth a thousand words so I have now color coded and added more information to stop your confusion.
The information came from this manual.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Img0011-1.jpg
Ball Mk.7 double base cordite rounds are marked in RED, Ball Mk.8Z loaded with single base NC or Nitrocellulose powder is marked in lime green. Read slooooowly digesting each bit of color coded information.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Img023B-1.jpg
If you are still confused after the truthful statement Amatikulu made about the Mk.8z round who by the way was a Boy Scout who NEVER lies, PLUS all the factual information in the chart below, you must have a learning disability. :rolleyes:
Below, the Mk.7z and Mk.8z .303 rounds were loaded with Nitrocellulose powder or single base powders
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Img094b-1.jpg
I hope you are now clear on what the “Z” actually means now that I have eaten my Thanksgiving meal, posted more photos and YOU have given me heart burn. :banghead:
You know I just asked a simple question.
If I'd wanted the insults I'd have asked for them specifically.
Sorry if I spoiled your holiday.
Good bye.
Fugwit2Quote:
Originally Posted by FugWit2
You just don’t understand my humor, it’s a cross between Don Rickles and Attila the Hun, BUT it was meant as humor and NOT an insult. :slap:
(I wasn’t “fugingwithU”) :D
Don Rickles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Attila the Hun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The main reason I made my posting here was due to the fact that Thunderbox and Alan de Enfield were having a slight disagreement and I enjoy reading anything these two experienced Enfield collectors have to say.
Both Thunderbox and Alan de Enfield have forgotten more about Enfield rifle than this rookie American Enfield enthusiast will ever know about his rifles because they have more hands on experience with the Enfield rifle.
BUT I must add the following, both Thunderbox and Alan de Enfield are 100% right and 100% wrong at the same time.
The British used the rebated boat tail design in their Mk.8z because this boat tail design DOES compress and seal the bore when fired and DOES NOT cause additional barrel wear.
A standard boat tail bullet on the other hand CAN and DOES create more barrel wear. WHY do you think the British used the RBT design in the first place, WHY do you think Lapua still makes the RBT design and WHY do you think Corbin makes rebated boat tail conversion dies for shooting experts who demand the utmost accuracy and loooong barrel life.
This type boat tail bullet will NOT expand and seal the bore and can cause more barrel wear if the bullet is smaller than bore diameter.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
This type military full metal jacket hollow base boat tail with exposed lead at the base WILL expand and fill the bore when fired.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
Score:
10 points Thunderbox
10 Points Alan de Enfield
Minus 10 points to Fugwit2 for speed reading my posting. :rolleyes:
I believe Ed's poor attempt at humor was a genuine attempt to help clear up the confusion.
The problem was he simply had extremely bad heartburn
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d_Tattoo-1.jpg
I would never have guessed that Amatikulu had eaten any of my Mother-in-laws over cooked ultra dry Turkey or had one of her killer face hugging, face smothering Holiday kisses. :rolleyes: Did I tell you my Mother-in-Law is 110% Polish :yikes:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
P.S. Anyone with the screen name of fugwit2 should expect someone to fugwitdem! :rofl:
Except Ed, I'm the one that gets their "nastigram" PM's to deal with as a result ... :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
You're scaring the flora and the fauna again ... please stop it ... :slap:
Regards,
Badger