Good or no good ?

Any of you guys know about metallurgy, have an opinion or experience with this.
I have this MLE barrel action that was deactivated by brazing the bolt in place with brass.
Now even to me it is quite clear that the receiver and bolt are toast.
But i am wondering if the barrel might be salvageable ?
Would the heat from brazing the receiver have affected it ?
No holes were made anywhere, no rod welded and no DP markings.
I'm asking because i have this 1893 MLM Mk II action that i would like to mate with a barrel and rescue it.

Attachment 111619Attachment 111618Attachment 111620Attachment 111621

I've taken classes in acetylene welding and brazing, and it looks as though the action was held with a vise tightened on the action barrel ring, so that would have acted as a heat sink. There's a good chance that some of the brazing material may have entered the receiver ring and also secured the barrel. Has the extractor been removed? If not, it will act like a "key" in the breech face to lock in the barrel. The only way to tell the condition of the barrel for sure, is to remove the barrel and look for signs of heat damage. Sorry, that's my best advise. Hopefully, someone with more experience can provide better or more information.

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

I've taken classes in acetylene welding and brazing, and it looks as though the action was held with a vise tightened on the action barrel ring, so that would have acted as a heat sink. There's a good chance that some of the brazing material may have entered the receiver ring and also secured the barrel. Has the extractor been removed? If not, it will act like a "key" in the breech face to lock in the barrel. The only way to tell the condition of the barrel for sure, is to remove the barrel and look for signs of heat damage. Sorry, that's my best advise. Hopefully, someone with more experience can provide better or more information.

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Hey any advices is good advices. I appreciate any help.
There is no visible sign of brass, on the top (outside)) of the bolt... i was/am hoping no brass (or very little) got to the barrel.
Yes the extractor is still in place, it is visible through the semi circle notch.
I think i can get at it with a small Dremel wheel cuter.... heck i'm even willing to cut the bolt head and a portion of the receiver ring, to free up the barrel if there are any chances to save the barrel.

Would i be right in assuming the scaling we see on the receiver is a result of intense heat ?
Haven't tried to scrape it off or anything ... yet.
There is a little of that scaling on the chamber portion of the barrel, but not too much... way less than on the receiver.
Almost look like the bluing got burnt off ... it's weird.

Oh... btw the eat was high enough to ruin the bolt spring and the rear sight spring (if that is of any help)
Well they remain a little ''springy'' ... but not much...

I know, no one can judge if that barrel is good or not by just looking at pictures.
Just trying to see if it's worth to even send it to a gunsmith (for inspection or what ever) and have it mated with the good receiver i have.
This is just out of my knowledge basis.

I'm betting the whole thing was red hot and then they quenched it in a pail of water. I wouldn't hold hope of using anything from it. They meant to destroy it...

What a waist

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I'm betting the whole thing was red hot and then they quenched it in a pail of water. I wouldn't hold hope of using anything from it. They meant to destroy it...

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Not the answer i was hoping for but chances are you are right ....:surrender:
Oh well, it is what it is and if it's not good i am not gonna install it on a receiver.

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Originally Posted by pisco

What a waist

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A total shame... i've never understood why someone would deact a non restricted gun.
At least it was not a total waste... a friend bought it and used the wood and fittings to rescue another sporterized MLE.
I hate scraping any thing, so i asked for the barreled action and he gave it to me.
At the very least i can use it to mock up wood and not risk scratching a good rifle.

I suppose the only other thing you could do is actually cut off the action body and remove the extractor from its slot, then try to unscrew the barrel from the remains of the body.

It could be toast anyway.

That said, if you have woodwork to restore, it's a great clothes horse. Or simply swap the wood with your mates sporter Enfield woodwork and mount it on the wall in your den...

Great wall art!

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Originally Posted by tatou

Would i be right in assuming the scaling we see on the receiver is a result of intense heat ?
Haven't tried to scrape it off or anything ... yet.
There is a little of that scaling on the chamber portion of the barrel, but not too much... way less than on the receiver.
Almost look like the bluing got burnt off ... it's weird.

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The heat caused by brazing would definitely leave scaling. If you had access to a bore scope, you could check the chamber and throat for indications of scaling. One of my books states that you can use an acetylene torch as long as you keep the temperature to the point that the colour of the bluing outside the contact point is not affected (the topic was annealing two (2) points on the top of a Mauser 98 receiver ring (notorious for being heat treated extremely hard on the surface, but dead soft internally) so that it could be drilled for tapping, and also involved using heat sinks. The writer stated that you shouldn't be able to cut the Mauser receiver ring with a file if it was properly heat treated). Under the circumstances you describe, unless the barrel has extremely valuable assets (pristine bore, special markings, rarity), or you're just suffering from Covid madness and want something to occupy yourself, salvaging the barrel is probably a lost cause.

After reading many of your posts, I believe that half of your motivation is the challenge. Personally, I've never removed the barrel from anything that wasn't a "take-down" model, although I've read the mechanics and methods involved. It could prove to be a learning experience, even if the barrel can't be salvaged.

Mausers seem to have been case-hardened, being they were traditionally made from a straight Carbon steel. Lots of recipes, but packing them in a bed of carbon-bearing material; shredded leather, for example, in a closed iron box and shoving them in a furnace of some sort, then quenching etc. is one method.

Note that a variation on this method is the guts of the magnificent "colour-case-hardening" seen of many 19th century firearms and "custom" 20th century ones. Some modern guns still feature this look, but because of the alloy steel s used, the effect is formed by some devious chemical process, not by being cooked in a box with tastefully arrayed leather and bits of horse-hoof shavings. The whole thing was originally all about forming a wear-resistant skin on certain surfaces; the cute look was an incidental bonus.

The advent of exotic alloy steels and induction heating etc, put a whole new face (so to speak0 on things.

"Spot-heating" has been around for a while, too.

If you ever get to fondle a MINT No1 Mk lll, particularly the Lithgow ones, look on the upper Left side of the receiver. There may well be an odd little round "blemish", about 6 to 8mm in diameter and sometimes with a tiny "dot" in the centre of that blemish. This is where the carbon electrode was applied to "spot-heat" the area just behind the left-side locking recess. SOMETIMES, its right-side mate is visible as well. A neat way to heat ONLY the critical area and then quench as appropriate.

Bolt bodies are a bit more tricky as, after heat treatment, they were extensively hand "finished" in the process of matching them to gauges and mating them to a rifle body.

Anyone have the process paperwork for the No4 or P-14?

I know it was possible for parts to be "over-cooked" in various hardening processes, especially during wartime. I have several No4 cocking pieces that have fractured in use, with the breaks clearly shows the sort of nasty, "large" crystal structure which contributes significantly to brittleness.

I'd say its toast, an old saying many years ago taught to me, for anything like the above or similar, if it was your car brakes and you had your family in it would you be happy....... NO
Works all the time for me, I've scrapped many a rifle and barrel when in doubt. Some I have saved and re barrelled to .22

I bought a Mauser many years ago ( Dealer to Dealer over the phone) a K98 that had been made into a target rifle, in which the action looked very similar to the condition of the above, (read Bruce's post above about Mauser's) some of the pitting had gone through the hardening, luckily I only wanted the barrel as it was a Schultz & Larsen barrel, but it was the fact the dealer would of sold this rifle to anyone.................... think his comment at the time was it bears proof marks, I wouldn't of fired caps from it, barrel removed and action scrapped.

"I'm betting the whole thing was red hot and then they quenched it in a pail of water. "

- Which could mean that the steel is now partially glass-hard where it was fully quenched, varying to dead-soft further along.

Even for me, that would all be far too "iffy".

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

"One of my books states that you can use an acetylene torch as long as you keep the temperature to the point that the colour of the bluing outside the contact point is not affected (the topic was annealing two (2) points on the top of a Mauser 98 receiver ring (notorious for being heat treated extremely hard on the surface, but dead soft internally) so that it could be drilled for tapping, and also involved using heat sinks."

Maybe the writer of the book would care to give you a guarantee? My local gunsmith once showed me a rifle where some bright spark had tried exactly that on a recycled barrel for use in a sporting rifle. So, by law, it had to be reproofed. The proof house turned it down as soon as they saw the receiver ring.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

That said, if you have woodwork to restore, it's a great clothes horse.

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Chances are this is what it's new purpose in life will be :dunno:

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

After reading many of your posts, I believe that half of your motivation is the challenge. Personally, I've never removed the barrel from anything that wasn't a "take-down" model, although I've read the mechanics and methods involved. It could prove to be a learning experience, even if the barrel can't be salvaged.

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It would have been a nice challenge.
I've done many SMLE Mk III's and a few carbines but i have never restored a MLE...yet.
I have this very nice 1893 MLM Mk II action/bolt and all the fittings plus a cut fore end so basically all i am missing is a barrel.
I have never re barreled an action (or had one done) before, i have never had the used for it.
But an 1893 is somewhat of a rare bird and would love to bring it back... even if it's a bitser.
I'm not worried too much though ... still plenty of butchered rifles out there ...ermmm i mean donor rifles :thup:

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

I'd say its toast, an old saying many years ago taught to me, for anything like the above or similar, if it was your car brakes and you had your family in it would you be happy....... NO
Works all the time for me, I've scrapped many a rifle and barrel when in doubt. Some I have saved and re barrelled to .22

I bought a Mauser many years ago ( Dealer to Dealer over the phone) a K98 that had been made into a target rifle, in which the action looked very similar to the condition of the above, (read Bruce's post above about Mauser's) some of the pitting had gone through the hardening, luckily I only wanted the barrel as it was a Schultz & Larsen barrel, but it was the fact the dealer would of sold this rifle to anyone.................... think his comment at the time was it bears proof marks, I wouldn't of fired caps from it, barrel removed and action scrapped.

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Yeah i have the same mentality when it comes to safety.
I just am at a total lost when it comes to metallurgy or the condition that barrel might be....
It's a first for me.

I never thought about turning it into a .22... might be a great idea actually.:thup:
Would the barrel, once sleeved, be safe to shoot .22s ? (i imagine so but this is another aspect i have no clue off)
I know it involves more than a sleeve but it still might be an option.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Maybe the writer of the book would care to give you a guarantee?

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Yeah... i have this saying about putting my face next to a controlled explosion, with a sketchy rifle... it's my face, it's an ugly one but it's the only one i got...:D

What about heating it up until you can remove the brazing, and pull the bolt that way? Then strip everything down, look into having the bolt parts and action re-heat treated, and send the barrel to a barrel manufacturer to be used as a pattern. Then buy one or two new barrels on the new pattern depending on if the brazed action can be retreated properly or not.

If you have the opportunity to get the barrel sleeved for a .22; then I'd say it's worth removing the barrel from the wrecked receiver to check it out. I would not use it for any other calibre.
To remove the barrel I think the best way would be to cut the receiver off carefully. Slot the receiver and split it open to release the threads; in the way you would a seized nut.
It will take some care and attention obviously, but it won't need heating up and should work. I doubt the braze has got into the barrel threads.
A .22 MLE would be a fun rifle.

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Originally Posted by 30Three

A .22 MLE would be a fun rifle.

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One of my first LE's was an MLE in 410 shotgun calibre.
Great little rabbiting rifle, once the chamber was properly reamed out,
You can use the existing bolt, bolt head and extractor Simply 'smooth bore' the barrel and ream the chamber.

A 410 only has a chamber pressure of ~12000 psi. SAAMI state that a .22LR has a chamber pressure of ~ 24,000psi

308 is ~ 62,000 psi
303 is ~ 50,000 psi

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Originally Posted by WillSarchet

What about heating it up until you can remove the brazing, and pull the bolt that way? Then strip everything down, look into having the bolt parts and action re-heat treated, and send the barrel to a barrel manufacturer to be used as a pattern. Then buy one or two new barrels on the new pattern depending on if the brazed action can be retreated properly or not.

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I don't know much about brazing but having removed some from a sight once i would guess the whole thing would need to go into a forge, to heat it enough... then there's the cleaning.
While still not be sure they can be cleaned and mostly saved.
As for having the barrel as a pattern... it's a little more effort than i would be ready to put into it.
MLE's or MLM's are not rare enough for that.
But I appreciate the input, i'm just not ready to go that far to save that rifle.

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by 30Three

If you have the opportunity to get the barrel sleeved for a .22; then I'd say it's worth removing the barrel from the wrecked receiver to check it out. I would not use it for any other calibre.
To remove the barrel I think the best way would be to cut the receiver off carefully. Slot the receiver and split it open to release the threads; in the way you would a seized nut.
It will take some care and attention obviously, but it won't need heating up and should work. I doubt the braze has got into the barrel threads.
A .22 MLE would be a fun rifle.

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I once made a cut away SMLE out of scrap parts, cutting and notching holes in the receiver was easier than i had anticipated.
Starting to look like a start of another nice project.
Thank you for the tips and ideas.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

One of my first LE's was an MLE in 410 shotgun calibre.
Great little rabbiting rifle, once the chamber was properly reamed out,
You can use the existing bolt, bolt head and extractor Simply 'smooth bore' the barrel and ream the chamber.

A 410 only has a chamber pressure of ~12000 psi. SAAMI state that a .22LR has a chamber pressure of ~ 24,000psi

308 is ~ 62,000 psi
303 is ~ 50,000 psi

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Ohhh... i think i like the idea of the 410 even more than the .22
Although i don't hunt small game and a .410 MLE might be a bit long to carry in the woods i do love the idea of being able to use the bolt and receiver with no work or alterations.
Not to mention that reaming and smoothing the chamber would certainly cost less than having a .22 sleeve fitted in.
If i was ever to find a useable 303 barrel i could always revert it back to it's initial 303 caliber.
I have a metal follower plate that was used in the Indian .410 muskets ... with some rework i might be able to fit it on top of the MLE magazine. To make it a single loader.
I also have 1/2 a case of the Indian .410 ammo... do you happen to know if these would be more psi than the commercial .410 ?

Don't think about rebuilding that action into a firing rifle. The action may have been worn out that is why it was rendered into a wall hanger. The heat for brazing will have destroyed the case hardening of the pressure bearing parts anyway. It is a relic a damaged relic and should be treated as that only.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

Don't think about rebuilding that action into a firing rifle. The action may have been worn out that is why it was rendered into a wall hanger. The heat for brazing will have destroyed the case hardening of the pressure bearing parts anyway. It is a relic a damaged relic and should be treated as that only.

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Thank you Bindi2, I appreciate your concern and it is dully noted, trust me.
Rebuilding that action was never even in consideration.
I would not put time and effort in to it... there are much safer and easier rifles to work with.
What i was asking was IF the barrel could have been affected by the heat.
And the general consensus is yes.... a big interrogation point at best.
That is more than enough for me to write it of.

I do however have another, perfectly sound 1893 MLM action that is in need of a barrel.
Now i am being told that it MIGHT be good for a .22 or .410.
That gives me just enough to consider having the barrel (and the barrel alone) checked by a metal fabricator/gunsmith who specialize in things like this.
I'm not talking about any joe schmoe here.
As much as i trust those who have answered me (lot of well known members here) i realize that they only give advices from a picture.
I would never risk something like this by myself or by the words from fellows on the internet (no disrespect guys, but safety cannot be underestimated imho)

I am a world away from doing anything with this, but i do have a better idea of IF i want to send it out and have it checked.

The chamber will have been affected by the heat just as much as the action. At best it is a relic at worst scrap metal.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

The chamber will have been affected by the heat just as much as the action. At best it is a relic at worst scrap metal.

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A relic to me is something that was found on a battlefield.
And i don't believe in scraping any of those old war rifles or parts... there is always something we can do with them.
Even if it's only to use as a fill in during a stock restoration... i would rather used a scrap action than risk scratching a good one.

If i would of had access to a good set of torches i would have removed the bolt and old brazing and would have turned it into a cut away display rifle.
I am still curious though ... i have guys telling me a barrel like that could handle the pressure of a .22 and i have others tell me it couldn't.
I was expecting some discrepancies with the answers, but for a total idiot like me when it comes to pressure and metallurgy it does get very confusing haha.:runaway:
I do really appreciate all the advices tho.

You’ll need to line the barrel anyway for a 22. So yes, it would 100% handle a 22.
The question really is, how much is that worth to you? Do you want to spend $500 converting a $25 paperweight into a $300 rifle? Some folks would. I would not haha.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

You’ll need to line the barrel anyway for a 22. So yes, it would 100% handle a 22.
The question really is, how much is that worth to you? Do you want to spend $500 converting a $25 paperweight into a $300 rifle? Some folks would. I would not haha.

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And this is where i would normally insert a few french Canadian swear words (but they would probably get deleted so i wont) :banghead:
I never plan ahead that far haha .... but you are absolutely correct, a very valid point.
Although i am no afraid to put money into a restoration, this one would be different.
Not a single piece would be original, a bister from butt to muzzle.
Not entirely sure i would be ready to spend $500 on that barrel....
I did get the paper weight for free tho.... so i'm saving $25 haha :madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

The advent of exotic alloy steels and induction heating etc, put a whole new face (so to speak0 on things.

"Spot-heating" has been around for a while, too.

If you ever get to fondle a MINT No1 Mk lll, particularly the Lithgow ones, look on the upper Left side of the receiver. There may well be an odd little round "blemish", about 6 to 8mm in diameter and sometimes with a tiny "dot" in the centre of that blemish. This is where the carbon electrode was applied to "spot-heat" the area just behind the left-side locking recess. SOMETIMES, its right-side mate is visible as well. A neat way to heat ONLY the critical area and then quench as appropriate.

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I have always suspected these marks were a result of the heat treatment/hardening process but it's nice to have it explained so well. Thanks Bruce