Considering joining the club...

Hello all.....I am a relative newcomer here, but have the "bug"...
I am considering purchasing a Martini-Henry from IMA...

This is what I am considering:
https://www.ima-usa.com/collections/...d-and-complete

The thought of holding a piece of history in my hands is very appealing....the fact that it "could" have been at Rorke's Drift is almost irresistible...Anything I should look for as extra appealing or to stay away from?

Also, are these for real? Assuming a qualified smith gives the go-ahead to actually shoot the piece....
martini 577-450 to 45lc chamber adapter steel - Other Gun Accessories Parts at GunBroker.com : 792857156

As always...thanks for the advice I would not likely trust to ask for anywhere else.
Mike

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

are these for real?

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Yes and that sort of thing helps when the rifle may not be up to shooting a full house load. Also cheaper than buying brass and dies and bullets...and learning to paper patch... Well, I did it anyway.

So I would assume finding a "local" Martini-Henry is unlikely.....how does one find someone competent to determine if a 140 year old rifle is safe to shoot? What even do they look for, other than the obvious cracks or defects? Does a headspace gauge even exist in this caliber?
Again, thanks in advance for any advice.
Mike

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

how does one find someone competent to determine if a 140 year old rifle is safe to shoot? What even do they look for, other than the obvious cracks or defects?

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That's about it, it turns into an opinion by someone with a licence to do just that very thing. If he specializes in military and antique it might be more to the point. I'd do it myself though, fit and finish, condition being everything. The sub cal would be far easier on the action anyway. I'm sure someone here can point you to someone that can provide headspace gauges...

If you're more interested in the action and rifle itself and not so much the caliber, you could also look to pick up one of the W.W. Greener .22 conversions from the early 1900s. I have one and it's a joy to shoot and absolutely gorgeous to boot.

all right...you guys are talking me into this.....:thup:

as for the adapter...brass or steel preferred?

Steel adaptors...brass is soft and can damage or stretch over time.

I like the idea of the adapter to .45LC .....still some bang, but at a much more reasonable price point. Original caliber ammo seems awful expensive, if you can find it...and I really do nt have the desire to hand load.
I will also look for the referenced .22 adapter...that's a cool idea, too. Are they available, in general? Are they affordable?

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

the referenced .22 adapter

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Not so much available and a collector's piece. I'd turn one myself using an old .22 rifle barrel...the back end would need an offset firing cap to fire the rimfire cartridge. Picture a piece that goes in behind the cartridge and has a nib on one edge. Then it all gets pushed out with a rod after firing. The barrel would be long...full length if I could manage. The chamber insert in .45 would be easier. Guess you could make a .22 insert about 12" long too...longer for accuracy. Barrels were also lined you know...I'd do one for a laugh in a common caliber like .30-30... Then it's centerfire and lower pressure. Still you'd want a good one for that, not one that came from the basement armory of the palace in Afghanistan...covered in Bat Guano.

The MK IVs generally are in better condition than the MK IIs. There is a man over on the britishmilita website that sells brass formed from magtech brass shotgun shells that are much cheaper than regular brass.
Reloading is really easy. I use 45-70 bullets and .470 ruger pistol die to neck size the cases. If you order one, I would state that you are wanting to shoot it just in case there is a questionable barrel on it. My MK IV had a mint bore and minimal pitting on the outside below the wood line. My MK II has a shootable bore and deeper pitting under the wood. All of the guns from the Nepal cache are a lot of fun to clean and shoot.
john

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

I like the idea of the adapter to .45LC .....still some bang, but at a much more reasonable price point. Original caliber ammo seems awful expensive, if you can find it...and I really do nt have the desire to hand load.
I will also look for the referenced .22 adapter...that's a cool idea, too. Are they available, in general? Are they affordable?

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The .22s I'm referencing were full-blown conversions with new barrels. They were done by W.W. Greener and C.G. Bonehill for the British Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs as target rifles. The founding of the SMRC and the conversion of these .22s was in large part due to the poor performance of British riflemen in the Boer War, with the thought that a populace which already knew how to shoot could be more easily prepared for war. They are, in general, available, but not so much as the unconverted rifle. They run the gambit on price. I've seen anything from $600 to $5,000 depending on condition and who's bidding.

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Originally Posted by 303 Gunner

The .22s I'm referencing were full-blown conversions with new barrels. They were done by W.W. Greener and C.G. Bonehill for the British Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs as target rifles. The founding of the SMRC and the conversion of these .22s was in large part due to the poor performance of British riflemen in the Boer War, with the thought that a populace which already knew how to shoot could be more easily prepared for war. They are, in general, available, but not so much as the unconverted rifle. They run the gambit on price. I've seen anything from $600 to $5,000 depending on condition and who's bidding.

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Yes, My bad. I misunderstood "conversion" (I was thinking "kit"). I did some subsequent research after you posted. Seems like a nice little package....perhaps for my "next" one?!!

Yes, the rifles would likely perform better...but I have a lathe so I think in terms of what can be done.

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

Yes, My bad. I misunderstood "conversion" (I was thinking "kit"). I did some subsequent research after you posted. Seems like a nice little package....perhaps for my "next" one?!!

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You won't regret it. They're fun little guns! If you do pick one up, they seem to like .22 short, though it's not marked on the action anywhere.

I have a Marrtini and had good luck using the steel adapter. Standard .45 Colt bullets are considerably undersize. Factory .45 Colt ammunition went bang reliably but the group at 25 yards you could just about cover with a poncho. Handloading, I found that reasonably good plinking accuracy was possible using hollow base bullets intended for .455 Webley. Cast from pure lead using an RCBS Mold 45-265-RN-HB and loaded over 5.5 grains of Trail Boss thy will do "minute of coffee can" at 100 meters. They work well with black powder too, but you greatly increase the risk of getting the adapter stuck if you don't keep things clean.

Lee makes a .454 Minie Ball Mould that some people say works well, the hollow base expanding to fit a Martini bore, but that I have not tried.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

the group at 25 yards you could just about cover with a poncho

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:rofl: Hard to coach that shooter...

They could actually be assembled on the firing line and shot too, deprime with a tack hammer and pin. Prime by hand and a powder scoop to charge, slip the ball into the case and chamber... Teflon tape around a bullet also tightens things up for these super low velocity loads.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

Factory .45 Colt ammunition went bang reliably but the group at 25 yards you could just about cover with a poncho.

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- No surprise. The factory loaded 45s would probably have a lead alloy bullet with approx. BH15 or more and would hardly upset into the bore.
Since the groove diameter of a .577-450 barrel at the breech end is something in the range .470"-.480" they are just going to rattle down the bore and not take the rifling properly.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

Handloading, I found that reasonably good plinking accuracy was possible using hollow base bullets intended for .455 Webley. Cast from pure lead using an RCBS Mold 45-265-RN-HB and loaded over 5.5 grains of Trail Boss thy will do "minute of coffee can" at 100 meters.

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Once again, no surprise. The soft lead bullets with a hollow base can expand to fill the bore much better. But the bullets are still too short to provide the kind of accuracy one expects from a rifle.

As you have already been bitten by the M-H bug, I strongly recommend that you search around here

Martini-Henry Forum - British Militaria Forums

where you will find more information on shooting M-H´s than anywhere else.

As the OP was asking about the .45 Colt adapter, I offered what my experience had been with one.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Martini-Henry Forum - British Militaria Forums where you will find more information on shooting M-H´s than anywhere else.

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I believe there is an "old tanker" there lurking behind the muzzle of a Vickers L7 rifle.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10404519-1.jpg

Oops! Sorry, quite correct, lost track of the thread. But my comments are still valid.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Since the groove diameter of a .577-450 barrel at the breech end is something in the range .470"-.480" they are just going to rattle down the bore and not take the rifling properly.

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So...with all that, a better choice for the sub cal chambering would be either .460 S&W or even .500 S&W to engage the rifling. They would still have lots of power and still be tame for that rifle. The problem however is wanting to shoot lead bullets and the OP doesn't want to reload his ammo...no factory lead loads are available that I'm aware of, although there are companies that do custom loading in the US aplenty... I would do it for him if I was even in the same country. Having a sub cal made and chambered would still be cheaper in the long run that laying out for dies, brass, bullet molds...or buying from someone that custom loads 577/450...

This gets more complex...

An addendum here...we discussed this a few years back and seemed to have it by the bag then. Here it is... https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4843

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

So...with all that, a better choice for the sub cal chambering would be either .460 S&W or even .500 S&W to engage the rifling. They would still have lots of power and still be tame for that rifle. The problem however is wanting to shoot lead bullets and the OP doesn't want to reload his ammo...no factory lead loads are available that I'm aware of, although there are companies that do custom loading in the US aplenty... I would do it for him if I was even in the same country. Having a sub cal made and chambered would still be cheaper in the long run that laying out for dies, brass, bullet molds...or buying from someone that custom loads 577/450...

This gets more complex...

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There was some discussion about an adapter using the .480 Ruger cartridge over on the British Militaria Forum. Dimensionally it would be an almost ideal fit, but no commercial sources. But finding lead bullet .480 Ruger is about as easy as .460 S&W. So it's back to handloading ammo, plus being good enough with a lathe to make yourself an adapter you can't just buy.

(As an aside, some people use .480 Ruger dies to neck size 577-450)

Lee 480 Ruger dies to neck size Martini cases)

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Originally Posted by old tanker

with a lathe to make yourself an adapter you can't just buy.

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Too, it seems to be a custom fit, or be very careful at first and touch up to fit.

So, back to having a barrel lined and using a smaller cartridge, like a 38 Spl or so...cheap...

...OK, next questions.....about accessories....
I am curious about the 1871 Valise gear. I know they carried 2 cartridge pouches....and obviously they were for cartridges....but "how" were they carried in the pouch? Were they wrapped? were they loose? were there individual loops inside the pouches? Does anyone have a image of the pouch with the flap open?

And for the black leather accouterments pouch....what would have been carried in there?

As always...thanks for any insight.

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Originally Posted by 82Trooper

...OK, next questions.....about accessories....
I am curious about the 1871 Valise gear. I know they carried 2 cartridge pouches....and obviously they were for cartridges....but "how" were they carried in the pouch? Were they wrapped? were they loose? were there individual loops inside the pouches? Does anyone have a image of the pouch with the flap open?

And for the black leather accouterments pouch....what would have been carried in there?

As always...thanks for any insight.

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Here is a place to start, go to youtube and find every thing this guy has posted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YNadIao3OA

First timer here a well. Not trying to hijack the thread, but where do you folks usually go to look for milsurp rifles? My general go to has been places like gun broker, but I have seen people on this form posting pics of guns they get from auctions, etc. I've been to one or two local gun auctions, but they were pretty lame. Any recommendations on good online auctions, or any other pointers?

Thanks for the lead on the videos...perfect!