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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
That sounds great - to make pictures was possible, I hope ? A special equipment.. An Enfield with an L 42 barrel fitted and a PH Sight. Yes, the DNAG ammo shows often a really good performance.
In the meantime I found a picture of this .303 British-Ammo from MEN. Here:
Today I took my 1987 MAB Omark target rifle, with a 1-14 LBS barrel, pretty much state of the art for shooting 7.62 NATO ball circa 1988. Fired 3- 10 shot groups of DAG 96 A0489, prone sling supported position with a kneeling bag elbow rest .
The ammunition is NATO DM41 ball, cupronickel jacketed steel jacket, 148 grain, repackaged for commercial sale by SM Chemnitzer Sportwaffen und Munsitions Gmbh, AM2030. Date code is approximate as they range a ring through the headlamp, date found by careful examination by magnification glass.
In any case 3-10 shot groups were as follows @ 100 yards:
1.510 ", 1.640" and 1.760"
The first group is really 7 shots as I moved the sight after two spotters and then after the 3rd round. After that I did not touch the sights for any other string. The second string was primarily vertical stringing, the light was a wee bit too dark for my old eyes to use a .043" (1.1mm) rear aperture. for the last group opened it up to .046" (1.17~1.18mm) The last group was marred by the fact that the front sight lockite broke down and the sight base was moving, so the last shot was rather far to the left and the zero bubble no longer indicated the sight was true. if the last shot was omitted the group ended up at a nice respectable 1.510
Of course I need to chronograph these cartridges to know how they would do long range, but for whatever reason my experience with German DM41 or DM111 ball has always been very good in these classic UK match rifles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
Thanks Frederick303
That sounds really impressive !.. . I will have a longer look to all your information a bit later. I hope that happens soon. Unfortunately I'm in a hurry today. And my week was quite an irregular one.. .
This DM41 Ball-Ammo seems to be a really good choice for our type of rifles. Unfortunately I couldn't find such ammo here in Switzerland, at least until now. This picture may prove their quality level, too.. .
Have a nice evening !
Greetings Enfield Enforcer
Hallo,
diese seltene Federal Match Ammo ist plötzlich in der Schweiz erhältlich. Und der Preis ist erstaunlich niedrig ... Gibt es irgendwelche Erfahrungen mit dieser Munition in einem Lee-Enfield L 42 A1 oder Enforcer oder L 39 A1?
Bitte :-)
Beste Grüße
Enfield Enforcer
Hello, there was a mistake in translating my las post... Pardon me.
This rare Federal Match Ammo is suddenly available in Switzerland. And this price is amazing low ... Is there any experience - accuracy - function - with this ammo for a Lee-Enfield L 42 A1 or Enforcer or L 39 A1?
Please :-)
Many thanks !
Best greetings
Enfield Enforcer
Verwenden sie in Enforcer / L39 / L42 keine .308-Munition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
Verwenden sie nur NATO 7.62x51 147grn Munition in einem Enfield Enforcer/L39/L42.
Remember that the chambers in military 7.62 calibre are VERY different to 308 (for example there is 0.013" difference in headspace)Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
7.62 can be safely used in a 308 but you should not use 308 in a 7.62.
Denken Sie daran, dass sich die Kammern im militärischen Kaliber 7.62 SEHR von 308 unterscheiden (zum Beispiel gibt es einen Unterschied von 0,013 Zoll im Kopfraum).
7.62 kann sicher in einem 308 verwendet werden, aber Sie sollten 308 nicht in einem 7.62 verwenden.
Hello
Thanks for the quick Answers, especially to Alan de Enfield for this picture.
It seems still to be a bit ambiguos to me. And complex.
Because some us the 7,62 mm NATO-Ammo, but also some .308 Win. stuff.
I have to come back to that a bit later...
Have a nice evening, all of you.
Best regards
Enfield Enforcer
Es ist sehr einfach, verwenden sie keine .308-Munition in Lee Enfield 7.62x51.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield Enforcer
Verwenden sie nur 7,62 x 51 NATO-Munition.
"There is a .013" difference in acceptability, between these two specifications. This is significant in that, for reloading purposes, brass will stretch more in a military chamber upon firing, thereby reducing the life of the brass and possibly promoting case head separation. But that additional length will allow a round to chamber in an incredibly dirty weapon, which is a requirement for military applications."
308 Winchester (SAAMI) Headspace 7.62 NATO (Military) Headspace
GO - 1.6300" GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6340" NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6380" FIELD - 1.6455"
However, it must be noted that this is the chamber specification and not the ammunition specification.
If you were foolish enough to also allow a MINUS .013" tolerance ammo the ammo, there could be tears before bed-time.
The external dimensions of the two types of ammunition are nearly identical.
The same shenanigans apply to the .223Rem vs 5.56, (be it M-193 or the MUCH later "NATO" variants
It is ALL about chamber and leade dimensions and TOLERANCES.
Those in the know will be aware of something called ".223 Wylde". This is NOT a new cartridge, but a new CHAMBER. It was designed to handle any "factory-spec" or hand-loaded equivalent of .223 and 5.56 ammo. It is NOT a super-tight "bench-rest chamber though cases fired in one will come out looking much the came as from a more "conventional" chamber. The principal difference is in the throat / leade.
Note also that Sullivan's original cartridge in the M-16 was first labeled ".222" Special". This then meant that there were THREE very different, but closely related cartridges with similar sounding names, hence the name change. It was throated for a very specific bullet, (after a lot of experimentation with weights and profiles). The military users then wanted a compatible, companion tracer round. Because of the twist-rate, this could not be much longer than the ball projectile, so, it was given a "dumpier" shape to hold a bit more of the minuscule tracer composition.
Note that this also happened with 7.62 NATO: Compare the profiles of ball and tracer projectiles.
A "dumpier" tracer bullet means that you need a longer throat. This may not always be optimal for "precision shooting" with slinky, boat-tailed ball projectiles.
A military firearm is ALWAYS built to shoot a restricted range of authorized ammo. What sort of interesting fodder "aftermarket" operators use is a different thing. I have seen too many good and sometimes rare and exotic, "military" rifles (SiG AMT and "Portuguese" AR-10, for starters), damaged or wrecked because the owner / hand-loader failed to keep reloaded brass (of any origin) within maximum overall length.
These days, we have the spectacle of the 5.56 NATO tracer bullet which, to hold a vaguely useful amount of tracer compound, is LUDICROUSLY long, The "visible" ogive is not much different from SS-109 / M855, but the bullet extends a LONG way back into the case, This, of course consume powder space, thus a whole different propellant must be used to achieve a vague facsimile of ball trajectory. It is the major reason that most "Mil-Spec' 5.56 NATO small arms have a 1:7" twist. Anything slower will not stabilize the tracer properly. Standard 62gn ball will stabilize in a 20" barrel with a 1:10" twist. In the Arctic, 1:9" may be preferable. The fast twist rate is also useful when you start chopping barrels back to dinky lengths. For any given twist-rate, lower velocities mean lower spin rates. It is spin-rate that determines aerodynamic stability. A contemporary example is the .300 Blackout, (nee "Whisper") Serious ones use a 1:8' twist. This is NOT to stabilize the 125 grain supersonic loads, but for the LONG bullets used in the sub-sonic mode.
As for pressures, If SAAMI uses Piezo transducers and the military ammo-makers use CUP, you get different numbers for the same thing. As they say in the classics, ALL UNITS matter.