Vietnam era M1917 bayonet and scabbard questions?

Will a 1960s Vietnam era Model 1917 bayonet fit into a plastic scabbard marked "USN MK1" that is said to be intended for the long Gerand bayonet, please? While I'm fully aware that a M1917 bayonet will fit into a British 1907 scabbard I'm not very familiar with the interchangeability between the various U.S. scabbards. My current understanding is that the "officially correct" scabbard for this bayonet should be marked with M1917 and be of green plastic construction. I'm sort of under the impression that some of the U.S. scabbards are interchangeable even if this results in the scabbard markings being wrong but I'm unclear which are and which are not. Obviously I do not wish to purchase a scabbard that will not fit a M1917 bayonet. Thanks for any information. :thup:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Will a 1960s Vietnam era Model 1917 bayonet fit into a plastic scabbard marked "USN MK1"

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You have the locking tabs at the mouth so the blade won't fit flush...anyway... I think it's wide enough to take the blade though.

M1905 bayonet had ... These were 16″ blades and which included .... Blade lengths are 15 3/4 inches long, 1 inch wide and 15/64 inch thick.

You have bayonets to compare measurement I think...should be able to decide from there...

Thanks for the information Jim. Is the scabbard I mentioned that is marked "USN MK1" defiantly intended for the Gerand, as the dealer claims?

a 1917 bayonet will not fit a 1903 scabbard but a 1903 bayonet with fit a 1917 scabbard

The plastic M1917 scabbard has no locking tabs on the throat, but is longer than the plastic M1907 and USN MkI scabbards. As rice 123 stated, you can put a M1907 bayonet in a plastic M1917 scabbard, but a M1917 bayonet will not fit a plastic M1907 scabbard.

The scabbard marked "USN MK1" was part of a set that included a plastic M1905 training bayonet used by the US Navy in WW2, however a standard M1905 bayonet would fit the scabbard. The standard M1905 bayonet scabbard during WW2 was an "M3" and was identical to the "USN MK1" except for the throat stamp.

The scabbard used by the M1917 bayonet during Vietnam was stamped "US M1917" and looked almost identical to the "M3/ USN MK1" but had different internal measurements.

The M1917 will not fit in the M3/ USN MK1 or the earlier M1910 scabbards.

Here"s a picture of my M1917 bayonet not fitting into my "M1910" scabbard. I am pretty certain the the result will be the same for "M3/USN MK1" scabbards.
Attachment 85303

BEAR

Just to muddy the water a bit more, in Bruce Canfield's book U.S. INFANTRY WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR II, he states that prior to WW2 the M1910 scabbards were in short supply due to the increased production of M1905 bayonets. The original leather M1917 scabbards were classified as "LIMITED STANDARD" to supplement the M1910 scabbards until the M3 scabbard production got up to speed.

BEAR

That's a fact, we've seen the picture of Joe Lewis the fighter and his 1903 at the shoulder and his 1905 bayonet in a US made 1917 type scabbard...

You two are referring to the 1905 scabbard? For the 1905 bayonet? That's what F10 is asking. Will the 1917 bayonet fit the 1905 scabbard. The later made Mk1 fiberglass type...and they have the locking tabs at the mouth. The 1917 bayonet will fit a 1903 scabbard of course.

You two go back and read his first question again.

So there, Bear has it.

Thanks for the information chaps. The situation that I have is a M1917 bayonet of the Vietnam era manufacture that has no scabbard which I have recently purchased and should be on it's way to me. There doesn't seem to be that many options available for the longer U.S. style plastic scabbards, even reproductions, over here. The one option that I did find was the used original U.S.N. MK1 which the dealer says is 17" long but it does have locking lugs, as Jim pointed out. The consensus here seems to be that it won't fit due to the internal dimensions of the scabbard. The locking lugs wouldn't be too much of a problem because they could either be ground off or more likely I would just leave the bayonet sitting slightly proud in the scabbard.

Are there many of these 1960s Vietnam era M1917 bayonets around in the U.S. or elsewhere?

Thanks again for the information.

I'm in the same boat. I have the bayonet but not the scabbard. A 1905 scabbard would be completely inappropriate for a Vietnam era 1917 but the scabbards for them are almost impossible to find and close to $100 when you do find them.

The bayonets aren't common but aren't what I would call rare either, just expensive, probably because a lot of Vietnam era men are looking for them and buying them up for nostalgia reasons. This is an age group that now has lots of disposable cash so the high prices don't scare them off. I only acquired mine a few months ago. Now thinking I should have waited for one with the scabbard.

The one that I've purchased is a U.S. made example but interestingly I'm given to understand that Canadian Arsenals made them too in the 1960s. They would fit into a British leather 1907 scabbard which are obtainable but would look slightly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Canadian Arsenals

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There are several links on that one but suffice to say the meat of it is here...about 2000 made... M1917 bayonet - Wikipedia

Ok thanks Jim. I take it that at least some WW1 vintage M1917 bayonets were taken out to Vietnam for use with the shotguns, not just new production bayonets?

Best I can tell, they did use original 1917 bayonets in Vietnam. They just didn't have enough of them so started production again. We were in Vietnam for a LONG time.

Here are more informations of the Vetnam era M. 1917 bayonets. I have two of the Canadian bayonets. They came both with the WWII plastic scabbard.

Bayo Points 10

I shouldn't think the leather scabbard would be much of a winner in the wet jungle conditions. It would promote rust and decay...fiberglass could have a well oiled blade in it without issue. I think the scabbards are Victory Plastics?

That problem is the reason that st of the Siam P. 1907 sabbards have today the full metal scabbards. First they were devilverd with leather scabbards but this was no good idea.

I think that the Canadians only made the bayonets and the Americans used them with the WWII plastic scabbard.

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Originally Posted by Melanie_Daniels

I think that the Canadians only made the bayonets and the Americans used them with the WWII plastic scabbard.

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That's right. I think that the scabbards were actually made by various US manufacturers, made by BM Co, VP Co, BA Inc & VZM...

Now you are back to the original problem. Do the WWII plastic scabbards work or not? Early in the discussion we determined they would not but now Melanie has two which are in WWII scabbards.

Could we see some pictures of the plastic scabbards, please, Melanie? Possibly they are post WW2 production?

I took the decision to order the U.S.N. M1 scabbard which I had the opportunity to buy because, although I'm not expecting the M1917 bayonet to fit, it will be a useful spare scabbard to have. There doesn't appear to be many original production long plastic scabbards available over here for U.S. bayonets.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Now you are back to the original problem.

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No. I don't think her scabbards are WW2, unless they're the leather ones. The new type fiberglass scabbard resembles the WW2 Mk1. They can be mistaken, there's two rivets in the face of the 1917 scabbards. There's some unclear information about there being some of the fiberglass scabbards being produced for WW2...don't know...

Here's some info from a collector's forum... "There was a plastic scabbard developed in late 1944 for the M1917 bayonet. What they did was take the body of the M3 bayonet scabbard and added a longer metal throat which allowed it to accommodate the 1917. It wasn't available until early 1945 and few, if any, got issued. For many years they were very rare in the collector market. But then a few years ago some were auctioned off by the govt along with M1917 bayonets. So you see a few around these days but they're still scarce. "

Unless this is what Melanie has...the BODY was used and a different THROAT was devised.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I took the decision to order the U.S.N. M1 scabbard which I had the opportunity to buy because, although I'm not expecting the M1917 bayonet to fit, it will be a useful spare scabbard to have.

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Yes it will be.

Pictures from internet: Top two M1917, bottom three 1903/Garand

Attachment 85344Attachment 85343
Attachment 85345Attachment 85346

BEAR

Thanks Bear. Now they can all see the pictures in my head...simple identification of the M1917 and 1905/10/Mk3 type.

Gary Cunningham's excellent website Bayonet Points (Bayonet Points) has some amazing photos in the Beckwith Scabbards section.

RIP Bayonetman

BEAR

VIETNAM WAR U.S. M1917 “TRENCH” SHOTGUN BAYONET – Canadian Arsenals - Jims Militaria Collection || 989-274-6314Jims Militaria Collection || 989-274-6314

Interesting, that's a WW2 scabbard.

So are we saying that some plastic M1917 scabbards were made during WW2? I couldn't see a production date on it but presumably there is something about it that "gives it away" as being WW2 vintage, Jim?

The WW2 M1917 scabbard had a stamped "Ordnance Bomb" above the "M1917" on the throat. The maker mark was on the underside of the hanger brace. They didn't start manufacturing these scabbards until 1944 (as already stated earlier). Less than 200,000 were made.

The Vietnam M1917 scabbard had "US-M1917" stamped on the throat with the maker mark stamped below that on the throat.

Both styles were used in Vietnam however the WW2 scabbard was prone to cracking on the tip due to the M1917's pointed blade.

BEAR

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

some plastic M1917 scabbards were made during WW2

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As Bear states...yes.

Ok thanks chaps.

The discussion got me curious about mine.
VN era Gen Cut with a WWII scabbard.

So, there's more around with WW2 scabbards than people wanted to make out. Their number of 2000 approx seems conservative, looking at 70 years and three wars.

Jim,
That was less than 200,000 not 2000. Gary Cunningham stated that it was 179,000 produced between January and April 1945.

He also stated that he could find no production numbers for the Vietnam M1917 scabbard.

BEAR

I must have read the numbers wrong...misremembered. 200,000 does sound better.

This is a really interesting topic.

Hi Joe,
Here is a picture of the three shotguns that took the M1917 bayonet. It was possibly the Ithaca Model 37 that you carried in Desert Storm.
Attachment 89296
Attachment 89297
Attachment 89298

That would have been a rare one...unless it was the eight shot deerslayer he had. I saw eight shot versions down in Pendleton in about '84...guarding the weapons stores.

Hi All,

I've been talking to Bear about his M1917 bayonet. It brought back memories I had of having an unusual bayonet issued to me during Desert Storm when I guarded prisoners. What was interesting was its length and the fact that inscribed into the bayonet were the numerals: 1918.

I have to say, I was really surprised, and also a bit upset (I had seen the movie "Gallipoli"!), but anyway, I have always remembered this special bayonet.

I want to thank Bear for graciously filling me on the details about this bayonet and confirming to my astonishment that the bayonet really was manufactured 73 years before that day when it was reissued to me.

Take a look at the pictures. I'm glad to hear your comments and your opinions about which kind of shotgun/trenchgun was issued to me.

I look a bit rough in two of the pictures. It was very early morning, and I had been on reaction team duty all night. (pics. 1991a and 1991c) Also, please forgive the condition of one of the photographs.

On the back of pic 1991c I wrote long ago: At the prisoner of war camp. I have just been on reaction team duty (to control a riot with the shotgun and the 18 inch WWI bayonet.)

In the picture next to the barbed wire, you can see the scabbard on the ground if you look closely.

Joe

I can't really tell by the pics whether it's an Ithaca or not...

Hey Joe,

I posted a challenge to the shotgun experts to ID your shotgun.

Looking at the bayonet attachment it appears to be an Ithaca but I'll let the experts determine.

BEAR (BDY)

Adjusted photos make me think it is a Winchester 1200. Looks like a 1200s long forearm.

That was my first thought too, if you look at the butt where the small attaches to steel, you see the chevron shape of a Win 1200 series...not the straight line of an Ithaca...also the silver of a lifter in the bottom and an Ithaca doesn't have that kind, they have an open fork.

Didn't the Win 1200 have a different bayonet adapter to take the Garand bayonet; the M5 variant, that has the stud that goes into the gas plug.

The adapters on the shotguns have no "boss" at the front but a plain leg with a hole for the stud on the bayonet cross-guard.

Bruce Canfield's big book may have details.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Didn't the Win 1200 have a different bayonet adapter to take the Garand bayonet; the M5 variant

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There also were those. That's a different hog though, don't think they saw use by the troops in RVN...need confirmation though. This is a 1200 Win, easy to tell.

Chevron shaped butt at the receiver and long pump...

Hi Bear,

This idea of a contest was a pretty good idea. Well, it seems like it was probably the Winchester Model 1200 as Jim suggests. That is entirely possible. Thanks everyone for your ideas. I appreciate it.

Joe

Hi Everyone,

Really good sleuthing here. Well done!

Joe

Like most of us, at the time it doesn't matter. I always had the interest when a young troop and noticed the difference in even a simple FN C1...but couldn't tell I had history or trials rifles in hand. Then there were the 1919A4s...M2 .50s...all the different companies...scarce and old stuff... We simply didn't have the info at the time. Guys like Blake Stevens hadn't written books, Larry Ruth was still working hard at his other job and Bruce Canfield was still learning. The internet...well had 30 years yet to go...

Wish we'd had digital cameras back then...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Like most of us, at the time it doesn't matter. I always had the interest when a young troop and noticed the difference in even a simple FN C1...but couldn't tell I had history or trials rifles in hand. Then there were the 1919A4s...M2 .50s...all the different companies...scarce and old stuff... We simply didn't have the info at the time. Guys like Blake Stevens hadn't written books, Larry Ruth was still working hard at his other job and Bruce Canfield was still learning. The internet...well had 30 years yet to go...

Wish we'd had digital cameras back then...

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Impressive knowledge to say the least. Thanks again.