Recently picked up another 03 and it has quite a few USMC traits along with it being within 2k sn of 2 documented USMC rifles. Could I get someone to take a look and see if this one shows or is near any hits?
Springfield 1903 1,510,538.
Thanks!
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Recently picked up another 03 and it has quite a few USMC traits along with it being within 2k sn of 2 documented USMC rifles. Could I get someone to take a look and see if this one shows or is near any hits?
Springfield 1903 1,510,538.
Thanks!
That 1.51 serial range is very, very unlikely to be Marine. Really anything past the 1.03 serial range is not likely to be Marine as the window for how it could have got into the Marines was very small.
I'm very curious where you are seeing documented USMC serials in the 1.51 range. I have only heard of one that might have been a team NM, but never saw it in person and actually suspect it's probably not a Marine rifle.
It's just the way the Marines received the M1903 rifles, anything in this range is very very unlikely.
I was going off of 2 recent auctions from a higher end reputable auction company. Both rifles were within 2k of my serial. Both of their rifles they stated were documented USMC. Not sure what documentation they were using, but theirs had all of the usual traits. I know as you have previously stated the Navy gave the Marines 35-50k 1903's in 40? I'm guessing those rifles were mostly older serials but you never know. This one has a few USMC traits but I bought it for its stellar condition in addition to it's gorgeous 1920's SPL cartouched fingergroove straight stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by cplstevennorton
Yeah the last time the Marines received new service rifles was about 1918. In 1919 they received barreled receivers, but not complete rifles. After 1918, the only complete rifles they received were the National Match rifles. Which were very small in number.
In the 1920's they did get some more barreled receivers, swapping a likewise same amount of barreled receivers back to RIA. I think this is where all those high number RIA's came in personally.
The Marines stopped receiving loose barreled receivers about 1927, and after this date did not get any different receivers until the Navy sent at least 35,000 and possibly up to 50,000 in early 1942.
But the docs detail the Navy rifles were basically the ones that the Navy had used and abused in training and they all needed rebuilt.
I think if I remember right it elludes these were the rifles that were used to train recruits at a training facility such as the Great Lakes or something like that, and the Navy was like we don't need rifles that can shoot to train our men, so they freed them up for the Marines.
The most logical way a 1.51 could have came into the Marines was as a NM. But even that it is very unlikely as there was a break of when the Marines bought new National Match rifles, and there was a controversy that happened in 1928 that would make it very unlikely the Marines would have got a 1.51 serial range in any of their NM shipments.
It's sort of a longer story than this cliffnote version, but it's so rare to find any Marine rifle above the 1.03 serial range.
Honestly the Navy rifles that I've seen serials on were usually WWI or earlier serials as well.
But I mean it sort of makes sense on why this would be when you think about it. The Army only produced receivers past the early 20's, to swap with their low numbers they were rebuilding. They didn't produce receivers to build new rifles other than the NM or sales rifles.
So that is why I have always thought you really only see WWI or earlier serials in the Marines and Navy. Because all the higher serial ranges the Army was making were going internal to swap with their low number receivers on rifles going in for rebuild
Some time around the fall of 1961 or 1962, I knew a man who worked part-time at Klein's Sporting Goods warehouse in Chicago while attending college.
There was a big advertised sale of hi number 1903 rifle for $34.95 each, which was a good price and he told they received a few hundred 1903 rifles
for the weekend sale. He had a chance to look these rifles over before the sale, he was looking for star gaged marked muzzles from National Match
rifles but unable to find any - but he did find two rifles with USMC stamps a a circle s stamp and bought them. The first one was s/n 1031506 with a
circle s 9-41 dated barrel which he later sold to me. The other rifle was s/n 1,279,085 with a Sedgely USMC 9-42 dated barrel with wrench marks.
The bolt was marked NS and the receiver had the Hatcher hole. the stock was a C with drawing number D-1836 with a heavy checkered butt plate.
This man is retired now and living in Flordia but still owns the rifle.
It's probably very likely that 1.27 was a NM Marine team rifle at one point. It probably doesn't show any traits of a Marine team rifle anymore since it was rebuilt, and most likely refinished, but I have a lot of serials all around that serial that I found in the Marine team docs.
I have seen quite a few 1.27 NM serials in the team records. In fact my Mann Niedner sniper built in 1941/42, the bolt in that sniper was an 1,277,338.
I'll be honest that 1.27 rifle would be one I would love to own. :)
Steve, I am going to talk to the man that has the SA 1.27 from Klein's warehouse, he has never fired it. If he is interested will let you know. Robert
While Steve is the undisputed expert of Marine 1903s, I'd like to add one observation.
The 1.51 serial range did have a block of official National Match rifles (mostly 1.516s and quite a few 1.519s) but most of the 1.51s were standard rifles built with "national match components." Many 1.51s you find will have star gauged barrels, or C stocks, or heavy checkered buttplates. Springfield was trying to clean house...these rifles were built in 1937 and 1938 and the Garand had just been adopted.
Since any "regular" 1.51 could have so many National Match traits, even if they weren't officially National Match rifles, they've become very easy to turn into replica USMC Unertl Sniper Rifles.
The auction houses rarely know what they're looking at (as Steve will attest to.) Slap on a C stock and a Unertl scope and you can find an auction house to sell it for 10k.
I've been studying and collecting National Match rifles for over two decades. The 1.51s are usually misrepresented. Same with the 1.44s.
Jamie Hurley