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I recently picked up two Model 97s that once were the property of the Denver Police Department - neat looking guns. However, both riot guns had the ventilated barrel shroud removed and parts of the bayonet lug ground off (it definitely looks like they had them at one time--you can clearly read the patent numbers on what remains). Was this common for police departments to do this?
Yes, police departments did sometimes remove the heatshields and bayo adaptors.
Do your shotguns have the 3 transverse grooves on the underside of the barrel at the muzzle end?
And, what serial number ranges are your shotguns?
One one I see some faint lines perpendicular to the barrel, but they're pretty faint. Both serial numbers are in the E372XXX range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon
oops, I meant E732XXX. And both are marked "CYL"Quote:
Originally Posted by Blockhead
The grooves are cut into the bottom of the barrel. They would be quite apparent.
The serial numbers of your guns are slightly higher than the known range of WWI Model 97 shotguns.
Are your guns takedown or solid frame? WWI trench guns were solid frame.
Photos would help.
First of all, thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon
I'm pretty sure both are solid frame. I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow.
Are the buttstocks easy to remove on these? I wanted to switch them, but I don't have clue how to do it.
In that serial range, and from that prior owner, I am going to say these are probably post WWII commercial trench guns. After some dopey flatfoot starts waving the gun around with a mounted bayonet, they remove the adapors or do the mod you see. Pretty common.
Those guns were made in the mid 1920s.
The only commercial trench gun I can recall with a lower serial number was part of the Winchester collection at the Cody Museum and is now in the hands of a private collector.
So what is anyone's best guess--were these ever used by the military, or did they go straight to law enforcement. Maybe there is no way to know. :dunno: But, if they had never been military, why would they have the trench attachment?
Commercial guns would more than likely have a brass buttplate.
No, they are NOT military. They made commercial trench guns, or someone may have taken standard M97 riot guns and added the adaptors. Probably no way to know for sure.
I can't recall the exact details right now, but the commercials with the brass buttplates were a special run made up for a prison system. There was a pic of one posted on the other forum long ago. They are quite rare. Most of the commercials had the standard buttplate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Rock
'Bout time we had some activity in this forum!!
Attachment 20715Attachment 20716
Thanks for the photos. That's a nice one!
Is your commerical trench in the 800,000 range? A lot of them in that range have brass buttplates.
Tom,
Yes, they are.
To make sure I got this straight:
Winchester model 97 riot guns were made for 1) the military 2) law enforcement and 3) commercial. Is that right? Is there a distinction between the commercial ones and the law enforcement ones? And some of the 97s that were originally riot guns were converted by the military into trench guns, correct?
And someone please tell me how to remove the buttstock :sos:
Never mind, just figured it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blockhead
Are these the grooves you were talking about? These appeared after I removed the the remaining lug piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/04/009-1.jpg
Another new question: How do I remove handguards? Thanks!
To answer your first question, I think the only difference is between military and commercial. The LE guns would fall under the commercially manufactured category, unless it was a milsurp gun of course.
Those ARE the three grooves. You don't have a handguard on your shotguns, not sure why you need instructions on how to remove it.
Ok, so what do the three grooves signify?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Rock
And sorry if "handguard" is the wrong nomenclature. What I meant to say it how do you remove the wood-grainy ribbed thingy the slides back and forth on the boomstick. ;)
The 3 grooves are what allowed the screws that attached the bayonet adaptor to the round barrel to reach the threaded part of the adaptor on the other side. Usually they are milled into the barrel and signify an original trenchgun.
As for removing the forend, do you mean removing the wood from the slide, or the slide from the gun?
You need a TM.
Thanks for in the info. So was there such a thing as a commercial trench gun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Rock
I just want to replace the wood with another I have. If it's a complicated procedure, don't worry about trying to describe it here.
TM - technical manual?
Yes there were Model 97 commercial trench guns. The one that Sct. Rock pictured a few messages above with the brass buttplate is a commerical trench gun. The brass buttplate is indicative of a commercial trench gun, and the Military trench guns were all made under a Military contract (i.e., they were specifically ordered by the Government).
OK, what did I do wrong? I just took out the magazine spring and plug, but once I put them back on I can't work the actions. It was working fine prior to that. :sos:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blockhead
Disregard, I figured out on my own that you can't work the action if the hammer is half-cocked.:lol:
Are these the two that were up for auction at Aldefer Auctions in eastern PA?
I try to get out there but missed the March 25th Auction...
Yes, I did pick them up from the Alderfer auction, as well as a Garand. I'm selling one (currently on GB, so anyone who notices any factual mistakes in my listing please let me know) and will keep one.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSgt's Son
are the serial numbers anywhere close to the Ivenhoes
Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
I don't know the range of the Ivanhoe guns. Anybody else?
732xxx is about 1923-1924 manufacture.
The highest Ivanhoe serial number is about 25,000 numbers lower and was made around 1918.
I know this is an old post, but I just aquired a Denver Police Dept. marked model 1897 trench shotgun. I should have it by Thursday and will post pics. The serial number is also 732xxx. The finish is not as worn and is blued. I think it is original. Solid receiver(not takedown), CYL marked barrel, three grooves, etc. The stock is marked on my gun, but it is also marked "Denver Police Dept." on top of the receiver, behind the hammer. The bottom of the stock also has the sling swivel mounting area filled in, identical to the shotguns pictured in this thread.
Perhaps the way to go is start a new thread with pics of your gun, you could link this thread so we can look back...rather than jumble the two? You ARE going to do an expose' on it?
I was actually incorrect by a couple of years in my 2009 post to this thread. A Model 1897 with a serial number in the 732xxx range would have been made in 1920 (at least that is when the receiver had its serial number applied). These Denver PD trench guns were either Military guns (acquired from the Military or National Guard), or Military overruns or commercial trench guns acquired directly from Winchester.
These is a photo on page 64 of Canfield's Military Shotgun book taken in 1921 which shows members of the Denver PD with 1897 trench guns. They still had their bayonet adaptors on them back then.
Hello Tom, thank you for the update. Is this the Denver PD picture from 1921 you were referring to?
https://i.redd.it/txg9l2ja5qez.jpg
Here is the caption:
Denver police officers pose with Denver's Auto Bandit Chaser in Civic Center Park in the Civic Center Neighborhood of Denver, Colorado. The car is a Cadillac modified by the Izett Auto Body Company to include bullet-proof armor plate, a bullet-proof windshield, spot lights, and a machine gun. Captain George Merritt aims the machine gun from the front passenger seat. Men of the riot squad occupy the other seats and hold bayonets, trench guns, and high powered rifles. Officials from city government and the police department stand nearby. Prominent individuals include from left to right: Manager of Safety and Excise, Frank M. Downer; Chief of Police, Herbert R. Williams; and Acting Deputy Chief, Robert Carter. The Voorhies Memorial is in the distance
No, it's a different photo in the book.
I found this on the Denver PD's Facebook page. It states that the Winchester 1897 trench shotguns were purchased from WWI surplus military inventories.
https://m.facebook.com/denverpolice/...543984/?type=3
---------- Post added at 08:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------
Here's another post:
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...&__tn__=%2B%3E
The photo in the book is the one in the first link you posted.