Greatest bolt action battle rifle in history...

[enfield303t]

It is Paul. At least among the thinking people up there, many who are good friends and some relatives of mine. Canada and Japan were the first two nations to sign the UN Charter and they will destroy weapons rather than surplus them most likely because it's a UN directive. Very sad.

We should continue this where we can talk politics and I would be more than happy to give you my opinion and that of all of my friends.

[CINDERS]

Be interested as well E there are insidious Govt moves afoot here relating to ownership of bangsticks which over time is crushing the ability to own them.

But back on track The M-17 & P -14's were an accurate rifle and exceedingly strong actions and whilst the doctrine of the day had allot of 5-6 shot weapons in service through various countries those extra rounds the SMLE had could make all the difference. The "Old Contemptibles" from the 1914 BEF were trained to a very high standard in musketry as the advancing German infantry found out sadly due to poor understanding by Generals about modern weapons & tactics they were decimated and come the end of 1915 very few if any were still there.

Somewhere I have read it was recommended to fire off 6 rounds then jam another clip in taking the mag to 9 rounds again do not know where I read or saw it I am asking if in the heat of a fire fight if a soldier can be trained to such a high standard they can remember how many rounds they have sent off.

[Paul S.]

It can be done given enough time on the ranges and enough self-discipline. I've done it when I was actively competing in small bore and air rifle comps. While that's not quite the same as the 'two way range', it is shooting under stress. That said, it is a lot easier with a bolt action since one has to manipulate the action. Also, I suspect the reason to charge after six rounds was to allow for a lost count.

[Eaglelord17]

That 10rds isn't as much of a advantage everyone claims it is. By that logic the Swiss 1889 is the best as it has 12rds. Its combat, you don't have time to fire off 5rds rapidly in a row without your head being taken off, let alone 10rds. Early WWI is a exemption as they literally marched in ranks at the enemy which quickly changed due to the realization that technology had moved far beyond where it was at. Later in WWI it didn't make a difference as if it had trench magazines (20+rds) which everyone adopted and had used, would have still been in common use late in the war and post war.

[Paul S.]

I suggest that discounting the 10 round magazine as an advantage ignores the advantage of not having to reload after 5 rounds when your position is being rushed by close range assaulters. I would also suggest, that the above comment does not take into account the more open warfare tactics and conditions of WWII and the Korean War.

[GeeRam]

Just a thought. LE were in continuous use in international conflict for about 100 years. Mauser and Mosin similar but shorter. Difference is that Mauser sold from the factory. Yes, the British government manufactured the LE and any sales were between governments.

Not quite true.
While certainly not on the same scale as Mauser, commercial models of the SMLE were made by BSA in the 1920's, and ROF Enfield made and sold commercial target version of the L39 named the Envoy based on the No.4 action in the late 60's/early 70's.

[Eaglelord17]

I suggest that discounting the 10 round magazine as an advantage ignores the advantage of not having to reload after 5 rounds when your position is being rushed by close range assaulters. I would also suggest, that the above comment does not take into account the more open warfare tactics and conditions of WWII and the Korean War.

You still have to reload with 5rd chargers into a manual action. If it was such a large advantage as claimed then it would have been done and kept by others when things like trench magazines were in use. The fact that the Mad Minute was also practiced with only 5rds in the magazine also says a lot about how it is done. If it was such a big need for Korea and WWII then trench magazines would have made a comeback, the fact they didn't speaks a ton to how useful it actually is.

If it was a semi-auto, there is a distinct advantage to having larger capacity magazines as you can actually use it as quickly as you can pull the trigger. A manual action, especially when loaded with 5rd chargers negates the advantage. You would be better off having a 6rd charger into a 6rd magazine (like the Swiss or Italians) than a 10rd magazine fed by 2x5rd chargers.

[Paul S.]

With respect, have you considered the extra amount of force needed to press down more than five rounds of ~.30 size cartridges from a stripper clip? Would/could the frictional force not be a (or the) reason why 7.62 NATO comes in 5 round strippers while smaller 5.56 NATO comes in 10 round strippers?

[Eaglelord17]

Look at the SKS with its 10rd stripper clips even though the case head is comparable to many of the larger cartridges. For .303 I 100% agree that a 10rd charger would likely not work as the 5rd chargers aren't good to begin with and with that many rims you would likely have too much to handle. With a rimless design it is 100% possible, but there is other disadvantages such as the chargers being longer. Mauser clips are pretty smooth, Swiss Chargers are very smooth, and enbloc/Mannlicher clips are very smooth as well. Enbloc/Mannlicher clips came in the 8rd variety for M1 Garands, no reason they couldn't have made them bigger to 10rds as some of the trial clips were. With a Enbloc/Mannlicher clip you could also set it up so there would be no possibility for rimlock as well if you were designing it for .303.

In regards to 5.56 vs 7.62 clips, I find the 5.56 clips to be pretty bad with most historical designs being significantly better for loading.

[CINDERS]

In relation to clips why the Swiss ever went with the stripper clip they designed is a bit strange as to hold the rounds in by the wafer thin aluminium tabs at the bottom seem credulous at best a fumble or slip they will straighten out and dump your 6 rounds destined for an empty mag by your feet not a good thing for ones constitution and what of inclement weather.
I have always said the British did things for a reason and a steel clip will take fumbling fingers and get the rounds into the mag in all my experience with shooting the 303 in comps since 1972 I must say I cannot recall to many rim lock issues one happened in a mad minute in 2006 at a comp even with that I still managed to get 25 away scoring 75.1 at 200M at a Fig.11.

In allot of our comps we the SMELIE men can only load 5 to be on equal terms with the Mausers & Swedes, each weapons platform has its own virtues and favored by different shooters heck that's why we like our chosen rifles I mean if I had the choice after between a Garand & SMLE after shooting a Garand in VN in Nov '17 at the Cu Chi tunnels well I could be swung to the Garand no recoil whatso ever.

Rifles are like cars some like VW's others like Ford GTHO Phase III's its all individual taste but there has been some very good points put in about the various ones and why.....