model 12 trench

[browningautorifle]

I'm looking at purchasing this gun, but I'm not too convinced of it's authenticity. It apparently was a RVN issue, and Winchester has confirmed this by phone to the vendor. When I put questions to him, he's hostile. These things alone tell me much. I think the butt is Savage 620 and the gun was NEVER military...the handguard? Well... Further I think without military marks, it was never military. Winchester "Says" the gun went to RVN by the serial alone...$1200 CDN...

Information

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[emmagee1917]

Well , the lowest / highest reported examples are 1961838 to 1964087 . This is outside that range , but not by much. It also has the pre-1941 heatshield , which would be cause to raise eyebrows. It could have been replaced in 'Nam , so not a definate cause for rejection. The best bet would to be to get a factory letter from Winchester stating it was shipped as a trench gun to a US departure point. This statement from him about what Winchester said also raises a couple of points . Winchester would ship to a US military address , were they sent it from there would not be Winchester's concern and Winchester would have no record of that. Secondly , they charge $$$ for thier letters and don't give out free information over the phone. This gives the gun four strikes against it. The military model 12s from this era had no identifing markings , so is very easy to fake . Without a factory letter , it's only worth the sum of it's parts .
MHO , Chris

[browningautorifle]

Thanks Chris, that's mostly what I though. I thought they all had military marks though. The phone call to Winchester was laughable. His acrimony was a flag also.

[Bob K]

It looks like the serial number font on the barrel does not match the font on the receiver. I'd pass

[browningautorifle]

Agreed, I thought that looks like a force match. Thanks Bob.

[vintage hunter]

The serial numbers look right to me. Barrel extensions weren't numbered until they'd been fitted to the barrel and receiver and they were hand stamped. Not unusual for the two numbers to differ in looks slightly. Most but not all Winchester rifles and shotguns will have a manufacture date and sometimes a s/n stamped on the bottom of the chamber but it won't always be the same as the receiver date. I have a Model 12 20ga that has a barrel date of 1912 and a barred out s/n along with another that matches the receiver and extension. The receiver dates to 1958. I know for a fact it came this way from Winchester because it belonged to my great uncle and he special ordered it in 1958.

[browningautorifle]

manufacture date and sometimes a s/n stamped on the bottom of the chamber but it won't always be the same as the receiver date.

Thanks but I won't be able to check this part out. I doubt he will co-operate considering the blast he emitted when I first questioned him. I doubt this gun is more than an assembly of parts in close formation, in Canada almost ALL trench guns are suspect. Good ones even look good. They just aren't available here...that's why they get doctored up. It's about what I suspected from the start.

[Bob K]

I still say forced match. I only have a handful of Winchester shotguns, but the font on the barrel and receiver is the same. You can clearly see a difference here especially with the number "8".

[browningautorifle]

The very idea that the front could have been force matched to me is reinforced by looking closely at the original photos and seeing angular marks like a file or machine paper on a file would leave. Also pitting on the receiver and not next to it on the tube. Then strike and "Magic"...it matches. Refinish and "No one's" the wiser...I think it's the least of the troubles with this one. The phone call to someone at the Winchester factory was the best part...and they confirmed it being at war...

Was he EVER acrimonious with me for questioning him...

[browningautorifle]

I also think the CYL marking is a hand stamp...doesn't look right. He's still got it for sale, probably wonders what's wrong with us...