Questions on Model 1897 markings

[highpower3006]

Walked into my local gun store and wound up buying (actually putting on layaway) two guns, a Winchester M97 trench gun made in 1918 and a 1906 manufactured '03 Springfield. No pictures as I didn't think to break out my cell phone and take a photo.

The question I have is this; The trench gun has the initials "RPH" stamped just below the serial number on the frame. The letters are about 3/8" high and resemble other police/prison markings I have seen. I have tried to look it up, but I can find nothing that tells me what agency they represent. Any ideas?

The 97 is in about 90% condition and I don't believe it has been refinished as the roll marks are sharp and the finish looks correct for a trench gun from this era. The finish on the wood looks right also.

The Springfield has a two bolt, finger groove (probably from the late teens) stock with the original cartouche and a rework cartouche next to it and a 1918 AV (Avis) barrel. Oh and by the way, I paid $1350 for both of them.

Information

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[GUTS]

Is the 1897 martially marked on the reciever, does it have a heat shield and bayonet lug, is the stock marked at all? A little more info would help us help you figure it out. There were a number of trench and riot shotguns that were not recieved by the military that were not martially marked and didn't have the heat sheild or lug. They were mostly purchased by jails and prisons. Some military shotguns were sold to prisons and jails too, but they would be martially marked along side having the prison markings.

[highpower3006]

No martial markings at all. Serial number is 631271, which according to Proofhouse, puts it in the middle of 1918 production. Many WW1 era 97's were not martially marked and were sold off after the war and consequently wound up in police and prison inventories.

Went and looked at it again today and I believe that it is probably not a "real" Trenchgun as it is a takedown model and I believe that all military trenchguns were solid frame models. The handguard is a four row WW2 type and the barrel looks as though it is later (WW2) also. I have two weeks to make up my mind on this, if I go through with the deal I will have about $700 in it.





Only other issue is the screws on the bayonet lug aren't screwd in all the way, and I am reluctant to mess with them if I don't go through with the deal.

[Tom Doniphon]

It's not an original WWI trench gun. What you have is a riot gun that someone has tried to make into a trench gun. It has the incorrect heat shield and magazine tube for a trench gun. It still has the riot gun barrel band, takedown lever, and magazine tube on it (trench guns don't have these features). It's also a take down model. WWI Model 1897 trench guns were all solid frame models.

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------

Also, that barrel is not WWI mfg.

[jmoore]

I don't think I'd purchase that '97 at $700 or anything close to it. Save the pennies for something better, or go cheaper and get one of the Norincos.

[highpower3006]

I could get an Norinco, but I just don't buy Chinese stuff if I don't have to. Went by there today and did a little disassembly on it. What I found was the barrel is indeed a Trench barrel (it has the factory cutouts for the bayonet lug screws and no hole for a front sight. I looked at the barrel shroud/bayonet lug assembly and it really looks as though it is a real WW2 US item. The buttstock is a military replacement for the early stocks and has the metal buttplate. All in all, while it is certainly not a "real" trenchgun, it does have some good parts on it.

Still on the fence as to whether I will purchase it or not. It is part of a package deal and I am leaning toward seeing if I can negotiate a lower price. If I can get a few more $ off on the deal I am inclined to go for it.

[scosgt]

The adapter is fake possibly an original lug but the fence is repro and has no real value. This gun is not WWI vintage the trench guns run from approx 670000 to 704000 your number is much earlier. If it is a trench barrel and not simply a cut down it has been replaced. Personally I would save my money for something good.

[Johnny Peppers]

Looks refinished. A Winchester from that period would have a rust blued barrel and a niter blued receiver.

[highpower3006]

Oh, it has definitely been refinished. The barrel is a factory replacement trench gun barrel. I went back and renegotiated the price. Wound up grinding him down to $300 for it, so I bought it. I know it's a fake and all that, but for three bills it will make a decent house gun (the action is tight and it locks up perfect). Plus, I can take it out and shoot the heck out of it and I don't have to worry about hurting the value.

The thing is, what I really want out of the deal is the '03 Springfield that is part of the package. I couldn't get the previous owner to separate the "03 from the '97. As it is I got the Springfield for what I was willing to pay for it and the Winchester was more or less just along for the ride.

What I really wanted to know was: does anyone have an idea what RPH stands for? While it certainly could be a previous private owner, for some reason the style and size of the stamps remind me of some of the LEO/prison stamps I have seen in the past.

[browningautorifle]

I would definitely take it for $300.