Help me identify my model of carcano

[Scottsguns]

I recently bought this Italian Carcano. The stock was broke in half, that is why I painted it. It does not look as bad as the photos show. The smudges are fingerprints. This is a neat little rifle. It is very short, about the length of a stock ruger 10/22. I took some pictures of it.

I bought this because I like military rifles, and this is by far the shortest vintage milsurp rifle ever. Someone told me that they think it is a shortened rifle, but I don't see how that would work as it still has its bayonet lug. My guess is that it is a Calvary Carbine model.... What do you think?

Also is there any way to adjust the sights? At 20 yards I was 5 inches up, and 5 inches left. A grouping of 10 bullets was 1-1/4 inches in the top left corner. That's decent for a little guy If no adjustments can be made I may slightly file down the rear sight to at least get it level...

The only thing this rifle is missing is the trapdoor.... Does anyone have one to donate?

This rifle was fun to shoot, except for having to pull the bolt off every time to load (I dont have a stripper clip). This is the only rifle I've shot where the bullet actually loads through notches in the bottom of the bolt, so you cannot just chamber a round and close the bolt. The bullets are approx $1.20 each, so not a great beginner rifle, or primary rifle at the range. This rifle had very little kick (I was suprised). If you find a decent one around $100 get it.... If you dont mind the ammo bill

Information

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[Patrick Chadwick]

I dont have a stripper clip

Well it's not actually a stripper clip, because the bullets are not stripped from the clip to fill the magazine. Neither is a "trapdoor" missing, if you are referring to the open bottom of the magazine. The loaded clip is inserted and held by a lug in front of the trigger guard. When the clip is empty it will fall out by itself. Or you can press the little button inside the front of the trigger guard to release a non-empty clip.

What really is missing, is the folding bayonet! You have indeed got a Moschetto 91/38 d.c. (da cavelleria = cavalry) and the most common fault is the loss of the bayonet and hinge components. It looks as if your Moschetto is maybe just missing the bayonet itself.

As for loading: it may be possible to load single rounds by thumbing into the breech and then closing the bolt firmly so that the extractor rides over the rim of the cartridge case. How well this works depends on the state of the extractor and the size of the rim - Norma rims seem to be a little undersized.

Drifting the foresight blade for horizontal correction is about the only variable you have with those very basic sights, which were zeroed for 200 meters. For any kind of target shooting you are going to have to learn the art of fine sighting - i.e. holding the blade higher or lower in the backsight V, depending on the range and ammo. A bit of a lost art these days.

[Patrick Chadwick]

If no adjustments can be made I may slightly file down the rear sight to at least get it level

No, don't do that, it is an irreversible operation. If you file the backsight down too far, it is notoriously difficult to file it back up again!
Learn fine sighting instead.

[jmoore]

Robbing from Patrick Chadwick, this sight picture works with most Carcanos at 100 yards or so:


The front sight is about altogether buried in the rear sight notch. (The round fuzzy thing is the target downrange.)

[DocAV]

Correct Carcano sighting: The top of the front sight blade has to be in the very bottom of the "V"...NOT your usual US or Anglo sighting Picture.
IN otherwords, you see Most of the Target in the "V", for correct fixed range ( 200 metres) sighting with a M38 Fixed rear sight.

As the " trajectory" is virtually horizontal at 200 metres ( effectively "Point Blank") one can only use "fine sighting" at ranges much greater than 200-300 metres...which after the Abyssinian War ( 35-36) the Italians considered as a waste of time ( battle sights and shooting was initially set at 300 metres for the 7,35 M38 rifle, and then moidified to 200 metres for the M91/38 Versions in 6,5mm.)
Only with those rifles developed for Longer range shooting ( the M41 series) did a varialble rear sight get introduced ( North Africa, Steppes of Russia).

Loading single rounds...closing Bolt over cartridge is a recipe for disaster ( chipped or snapped extractor)>
The Carcano Extractor was designed on the Mauser "Guided chambering" principle, where the cartridge rose up from the Magazine UNDER the extractor claw before chambering...also preventing "Double chambering" and premature discharge. Even though the Carcano uses a single column packet clip, it is essential for correct chambering. If constrained to load without a clip, the cartridge must be laid in the boltway,

over the Cartridge elevator, and the Bolt moved forward so as to let the cartridge rim go under the extactor claw before closing the chamber.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Correct Carcano sighting: The top of the front sight blade has to be in the very bottom of the "V"...NOT your usual US or Anglo sighting Picture. IN otherwords, you see Most of the Target in the "V", for correct fixed range ( 200 metres) sighting with a M38 Fixed rear sight.

Thanks for the contribution, but isn't that just what has already been shown in the drawing which jmoore extracted from the archives?

As the " trajectory" is virtually horizontal at 200 metres ( effectively "Point Blank") ...
...one can only use "fine sighting" at ranges much greater than 200-300 metres...

That is just not so. Raising or lowering the target in the aperture raises or lowers the sight line by a certain angle, and that has nothing to do with the distance. And has nothing to do with the flatness of the trajectory - which, BTW, is not horizontal, all shots exhibit a certain amount of drop, and a Carcano is no 22-250.

To put some figures into the argument, I took some photos of my Fucile 91/41. The dimensions may be different for the Moschetto, but I'm sure jmoore can supply the values for that model. The argument remains the same.

Attachment 39326

As you can see, the V on the fixed backsight is generous. It measures (near enough) 2.2mm wide and 2.2mm deep. (Jmoore - please compare with the Moschetto)
With your eye about 35 cm (i.e. 1/3 meter) from the backsight - hardly closer unless you like getting your cheek banged by the bolt - the apparent size of an 8"/200 mm black at 100 meters will be 200 x 0.35 / 100 = 0.7 mm. Even smaller than in my drawing, in fact.
The adjustable range for the center of the black - from level with the top of the V to just sitting on the bottom is thus

2.2 - 0.5x0.7 = 2.2 - 0.35 = 1.85 mm

The sight radius is 58 cm. So shifting the foresight vertically by 0.58 mm with respect to the backsight V will alter the POI by about 4 MOA regardless of the target distance.
The total V depth on the fixed sight therefore covers a range of 15 MOA.

Fine sighting is not an option. It is a necessity. And, I submit, this deep V would not have been required unless fine sighting was also intended.
On the Moschetto, the shortened sight radius will make the effect even greater. The result will be a range of something like 18-20 MOA.

Looking at the flip-up sight leaf, we can see that the V is even deeper.

Attachment 39325

Yes, even deeper than on a Martini-Henry, the sight picture of which an acquaintance described as "looking at the Great Pyramid through a railway cutting". In the case of the Carcano, it is like looking through the Corinth Canal - very, very deep. My example measures 3mm wide by 4 mm deep. Using the same calculation method as before, this covers a range of

4 -0.35 = 3.65mm, or a whopping great 30 MOA - twice as much as for the fixed sight
And once again, I submit that this apparently grotesque depth would not be necessary unless fine sighting were intended.

The fixed sight of the Moschetto has been laughed at by shooters spoilt by the luxury of more modern sights with vertical and horizontal adjustment. But using fine sighting, and with, it must be admitted, practice of a kind which most shooters no longer undertake, this method was perfectly adequate over the ranges at which the Moschetto was expected to be used. And in the 19th century (see the "Regulations for Conducting Musketry Instructions of the Army", from 1859) it was the standard method for all shooters using rifles with simple backsight leaf steps, and no continuous adjustment.

If constrained to load without a clip, the cartridge must be laid in the boltway,

You are quite correct to say that this is desirable. But how practical is it?

Attachment 39324

Take a look at the above photo. The elevator does not have even a hint of a loading tray.

Have you tried it yourself? On the firing point? For a full string?

Since the cartridge will not balance on the elevator if you dare to breathe, you have to push it forwards until the bullet nose is just on the ramp - not too far, otherwise the rising effect is lost - and then push the bolt forwards WITHOUT DISTURBING THE CARTRIDGE.

Well I did try it. And although I am a cautious, sometimes even picky person in the handling of rifles, I very soon gave up and just banged the cartridges in. And got hold of a clip a.s.a.p.
The clip is the only long-term answer unless one wants to suffers endless annoyance or (yes, you are right!) bang up the case rims. Or rebuild the magazine section - I have heard of this being done, but not seen the results.

P.S. If my maths is off-target, I would be grateful for a friendly correction!

[Aragorn243]

Get a clip, they are available and not extravagantly expensive. The same clip works with both calibers and interchanges with all models. You can probably get a set of three for $15 or so, maybe more, maybe less on ebay or any number of milsurp suppliers online. Just make sure you pick them up when you are done. If you are lucky, you'll find someone with a box of surplus, there will be three clips in the box so long as it was unopened and unmolested.

I need to take mine out again and see if I have better luck with that sight picture. I was unable to find the target using the usual top of pin, top of notch I'm used to.

While obviously not original, the stock has a nice look to it. My concern would be how you strengthened the stock where it was broken in half to withstand the repeated recoil.