Minnie ball style bullets for oversize bores

[1886nut]

One of my trapdoors displays terrible accuracy even with .458 (off the shelf)bullets. I slugged the bore, and the slug came out to .462 on the lands. Bullets occasionall keyhole at ranges as short as 40 paces or so.

The problem is, its also one of my nicest guns, with strong blueing and case colors....I dont want to get rid of it. My preference would not be to have a custom bullet mold made and get into casting if I can avoid it....has anyone ever tried dishing out the back of hard cast bullets to get them to grip an oversize bore better? I have a lathe to do this accurately with but wanted to see if anyone had had tried it. Obviously this would alter the weight of the 450-500 gr. solids I normally use.

Information

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[musketshooter]

Don't waste you time messing with undersized bullets. Lee makes a .460 bullet with a cavity in the base. It's not actually a mini ball, but the base plug could be remodeled to make the cavity deeper and wider. Try a very small lead to tin to lead mixture which may cause the cavity to obtrude properly in the bore. I also have a Cadet with a .463 bore and it is just a marginal shooter with that bullet.

[1886nut]

Don't waste you time messing with undersized bullets. Lee makes a .460 bullet with a cavity in the base. It's not actually a mini ball, but the base plug could be remodeled to make the cavity deeper and wider. Try a very small lead to tin to lead mixture which may cause the cavity to obtrude properly in the bore. I also have a Cadet with a .463 bore and it is just a marginal shooter with that bullet.

Thanks, but I dont have a place to do the casting, and a young child I dont want exposed to lead vapors.

[free1954]

buffalo arms Black Powder Cartridge / Cowboy Smokeless Cartridge Guns Lead Cast Bullets SPG Lubed .460 Dia. & Up and others make cast bullets in the size you need. they aint cheap, but you don't have to cast.

[13Echo]

Trapdoor bores are rather large and do best with soft lead bullets of .460" or even larger. I use the Lee hollow base 405 gr bullet and the SAECO 881 500 gr bullet both cast of 30:1 lead-tin alloy. Over a black powder charge they bump up to fit the barrel and are quite accurate. As free1954 noted, suitable bullets lubed with a good black powder lube are available from Buffalo Arms. The best source of information on loading is Spence Wolf's book on loading for the Trapdoor. It's a rambler but it is the best source of information there is. Google Wolf's Western Traders.

Jerry Liles

[sdkrag]

There used to be an outfit named Mount Baldy Bullets out of the Black Hills in SD that used the mould that Spencer Wolf designed and Lee manufactures. Don't know if they are still around or not. I use the Lee 405 and a Rapine 500 gr. with @10% tin alloy. These two moulds replicate the original bullets as closely as I have seen. The keyholing problem is what led to the development of both these moulds about 20 years ago. There was a lot of loading knowledge that died in the 1st half of the last century that had to be rediscovered. The govt. didn't use paper patched bullets which grip the shallow rifling. So they used hollow based (minie style) bullets instead. I use black powder exclusively so I have no qualms about the possibility of overloading an old trapdoor action. In fact you really have to work (compressed loads) to get 70 grs. of black powder in modern casings. We also drill the primer hole out to about 3/32 and use magnum primers for more complete ignition, especially in competitive shooting situations.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

Trapdoor bores are rather large and do best with soft lead bullets of .460" or even larger. The best source of information on loading is Spence Wolf's book on loading for the Trapdoor. It's a rambler but it is the best source of information there is. Google Wolf's Western Traders.

Jerry Liles

this oversize GROOVES (bore is the HOLE, GROOVE is the additional depth) thing gets a bit tedious at times. A true overisize GROOVE size in a trapdoor is fairly unusual. Likewise, MEASURING a three groove rifling barrel is almost impossible without an anvil micrometer. EVERY single trapdoor rifle I have ever owned would bot accept a .451 ACP bullet. Thus the BOREs were all .450" or even smaller! Of course, I am incredibly picky about buying TDs, especiallly bore condition.

As to SHOOTING oversize BULLETS:

1. I have NEVER had to do this and have had excellent success with ALL of my TD rifles (and I have owned well over a dozen).

2. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to SEAT a .460 bullet in a modern (even unsized)45-70 case as the case mouth is gonna size it down to about .459" and/0r it ain't gonna FIT in the chamber. This was verified by a gentleman on the old Jousters TD forum. Thus "or larger" is NOT gonna work.

3. I would try shooting a remington or other JACKETED bullet. If that keyholes, you can either try a hollow base bullet (and good luck with that) or buy another shooter.

As for the late Mr. Wolfe's book,I personally think it is a very poorly written and researched book and a last choice for a beginner handloader.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

this oversize GROOVES (bore is the HOLE, GROOVE is the additional depth) thing gets a bit tedious at times. A true overisize GROOVE size in a trapdoor is fairly unusual. Likewise, MEASURING a three groove rifling barrel is almost impossible without an anvil micrometer. EVERY single trapdoor rifle I have ever owned would bot accept a .451 ACP bullet. Thus the BOREs were all .450" or even smaller! Of course, I am incredibly picky about buying TDs, especiallly bore condition.

As to SHOOTING oversize BULLETS:

1. I have NEVER had to do this and have had excellent success with ALL of my TD rifles (and I have owned well over a dozen).

2. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to SEAT a .460 bullet in a modern (even unsized)45-70 case as the case mouth is gonna size it down to about .459" and/0r it ain't gonna FIT in the chamber. This was verified by a gentleman on the old Jousters TD forum. Thus "or larger" is NOT gonna work.

3. I would try shooting a remington or other JACKETED bullet. If that keyholes, you can either try a hollow base bullet (and good luck with that) or buy another shooter.

As for the late Mr. Wolfe's book,I personally think it is a very poorly written and researched book and a last choice for a beginner handloader.

***

sorry, I meant to say greatly oversize BORE(s) is fairly unusual, although GROOVE diameters can exceed.458 (typically .460). This is no big deal of course and there is usually plenty of "bite" on most normal .45 caliber jackted and cast rifle bullets from .457-.458/9.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

here is a quick test. go borrow a .451 jacketed or .452 cast lead bullet. if the .451 goes in your muzzle easily (and HOLD ONTO IT as getting it back out may be a REAL problem) or the .452 goes in without much fuss, find another rifle to shoot. as for hollow base type bullets, they might work I guess, but I doubt they would ever be able to give you the easy 2-3 MOA that most trapdoors (with nice bores) can do.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

ooops, an egregious typo, I meant to write "adviCe" not "adviSe." apologies.